how much difference between kanguro and strada engine?

[tried-them-all]

I've got a 350 strada/sport engine lying around doing nothing, and rather than a full rebuild of a 350 kanguro engine I may as well throw the unknown road engine in the kanguro and see if it runs... so, apart from the oil pressure switch hanging under the left engine side cover are there any reasons why it would be a bad idea? ...such as gearbox ratios or camshaft being unsuitable for the job?

thanks
phil

[Steve Brown]

I think that is a sound plan. As far as I know the Kanguros (or at least some of the later ones) had an 'M' camshaft. The Strada cam and the engine tune will suit a trail bike fine unless you're a hardcore MX type who rides balls out everywhere. It should make a nice soft easy going bike. Most of the Kanguro engines I've looked in had higher comp Sport type pistons and the 'M' cam but I think the riding result isn't much different to a Strada. If you take a look at the NL club website and search around here for camshaft stuff by Tom Farrow and Paul Compton you can get a lot more accurate timing info.

[Steve Brown]

Forgot to add-350 gearboxes are all the same.

[tried-them-all]

thanks for that... i'll rebuild the kanga engine anyway and look at the differences as I go as I have another 350 road engine in pieces for comparison as well.

BTW is there a simple way to distinguish between a strada and sport engine without looking at the naked pistons? I can drop a camera into the plug hole if needed...

[morini_tom]

BTW is there a simple way to distinguish between a strada and sport engine without looking at the naked pistons? I can drop a camera into the plug hole if needed...

A sport engine would originally have had an 'S' stamped on the crankcase below the front barrel on the right hand side

But that doesn't really tell you anything as after 40 years the important different parts could have been changed out.

Those parts are really only pistons and camshaft

Pistons- placing sport and strada pistons side by side you can see the difference due to the fact that the sport pistons are taller to reduce the squish volume. I don't know how you could tell with the cylinder head still fitted. You could do a compression test but that won't really tell you anything as there are too many other factors at play (wear, valves, cam profile etc etc)

Camshaft- Probably the easiest thing to check with a bit of measurement. With the valve clearance set at the reference check clearance of 1.0mm a dti on the valve, and a timing disc set up then you should get the following:

SPORT CAM:
intake valve opening at 28 deg btdc
intake valve closing at 55 deg abdc
exhaust opening 57 deg bbdc
exhaust closing 25 deg atdc

STRADA CAM:
ivo 12 deg btdc
ivc 42 deg abdc
evo 42 deg bbdc
evc 12 deg atdc

If it's a kanguro or a late 350 then it probably has an M cam:
ivo 24 deg btdc
ivc 49 deg abdc
evo 55 deg bbdc
evc 23 deg atdc

Or it could have an E cam if it's a kanguro but I don't have the timing data at 1mm lift for an E to hand.

If setting up with a degree disc is not possible then you can get a quick indication of the cam type by measuring max lift. I measure lift at the pushrod because I have measured cam profiles and so doing it at the pushrod means you don't have to take into account the rocker ratio.

Max cam lobe lift (intake and exhaust) of a sport cam is 5.8mm whereas a strada is 5.3mm and an E is 5.6mm

An M cam has a slightly higher lift at 6.2 intake and 5.9 exhaust (That doesn't necessarily mean an M cam is better than a sport as the duration is shorter.

Let us know what you find!

By the way, just for others reading this thread, I think it's important to point out that there are other changes made to the engines over the years, which may not make a performance difference per se but should be aware of, particularly if building up an engine from parts. The main ones from my perspective are:
different types of stator/flywheel- later ones with wider bobbins and increased output, flywheels with starter shoe drum. Some alternators have an extra white wire which is an additional earth and can be run to the transducers, and of course the mixed 6V/12V charging system of some of the offload bikes.
Main bearing- Early 350s had a ball bearing on the alternator side, later engines had a plain bearing. It doesn't really matter which type you have but be aware that they increased the oil pump flow with the plain bearing so if you have a plain bearing make sure you have a 7 start on the worm gear rather than a 6 start oil pump. You can tell if you have a plain bearing as behind the alternator there will be 3 small caphead bolts which go through the crankcase and bolt the plain bearing holder in place.
Barrels- Later 350s had nikasil coating on the barrels. You can tell these as they are one piece with aluminium liners rather than inserted steel liners, and the nikasil barrels have 'gilardoni' cast into the pushrod tunnel between the fins. Nikasil barrels wear significantly less and can run a tighter clearance. It was probably done for noise reasons but nowadays on our worn out bikes the most significant benefit is that they are probably still not worn out compared to their steel counterparts. It doesn't matter whether you have nikasil barrels or not but you need to make sure the correct pistons and rings are used for each type.
Pickup- Don't go putting an engine into a different bike 'as-is' without making sure that the pickup on the donor engine is compatible with the transducer in the frame. Again, it doesn't matter which pickup/transducer combination you have, so long as they are the correct pairing with eachother.

Finally, all the above engine differences relate to the pre-kokusan engines. When you get into Cougaros, Darts and Late excalibur/new york then there are further differences around the ignition system and starter motor/primary drive.

[Vitesse]

That's an interesting read Tom. Is it listed anywhere by year or engine number where those various changes occurred? I.e so we can work out what barrels, etc we're all running?

Ref the pistons, how much difference is there in height between types? Could he work out which by using a vernier gauge through the plug hole at TDC and comparing height? Alternatively at TDC with valves closed measuring the combustion chamber volume by dripping oil in? Assuming the values are known of course.

[morini_tom]

pfft- a reliable list of changes by date or engine number?!?!?! It's in the same library as the map of rocking horse shit deposits and unicorn blood lakes

Joking aside though, as a very loose rule of thumb, the K2 (~1983) was the first to get the Giladroni barrels, 160W alternator and the M cam. X1 kanguaros got the Giladroni barrels (although maybe still had an 'X' engine stamp?). I'm not sure what cam the X and X1 had. The X2 homologation spec lists the M cam from the X2 onwards.

Checking the barrels is easy as the Gilardroni casing is externally visible- its on the pushrod tunnel between the fins. If there is no writing there it's likely a cast iron liner.

Piston heights, yes you could try to measure cylinder volumes but you need to very accurately set TDC and then you will still be subject to some variation due to carbon deposits and cylinder gasket thickness, not to mention the possibility of a rebore increasing capacity or non standard pistons having been fitted. It's probably not that reliable. And the height difference is in the very top piston land which probably isn't accessible to measure with the head on as it's offset to the plug hole. I don't know what the height difference is but someone who has a sport and strada piston on the bench could measure perhaps. It's a few mm.

Ultimately, our engines are all getting quite old now so one which is not worn out is probably going to go better than a worn out one, regardless of cam and piston. And if an engine was running nicely I wouldn't take it apart just for the sake of checking/changing an otherwise good cam or piston to a 'better' spec. But if you are rebuilding an engine it's good to know what you've got and provided all clearances etc are checked and in spec as per the blue book then it's worth considering options

[EVguru]

Gillardoni barrels have larger liner spigots and the matching crankcases have correspondingly larger barrel mouths to suit.

Barrel heights and pushrod lengths are slightly different too.

['It must be a .....']

What about the Gilardoni 400cc conversion kits for the 350, are they different?

[tried-them-all]

Morini Tom, thanks, this is great stuff!!!

So one of my basket case 350 engines is a "S" for sport, and the cam has a small "s"stamped between the cylinder lobes. All my engines have the cap screws under the altenator. I have both gilardoni and cast iron sleeve barrels sets - any way of telling which went on which? - only by piston size? I see a post by paul that the crankcase mouth size should be different, but both cases seem the same.

the complete engine now in the kanguro is not stamped S, has steel liner barrels and has cap screws under the altenator, making it an early 80's strada?

the engine that I think came out of the kanguro has an x stamped on the left crankcase next to the morini logo. It has the top end removed, so I don't know if it was gilardoni or not and I can't yet look at the camshaft, but i can check the lift...

** OK, a casual check of how far the tappet comes out of the case on full lift gives me around 5.6mm so a E cam seems likely - it is an X1 kanga

Also, the outrigger bearing for the pickup side of the camshaft - did it appear in a certain year or only on mechanical tacho bikes? My 500 camel doesn't have it...

[tried-them-all]

Tom
I hope you have a quick answer for this:

I have a NOS stator, the part number on the box is 460584, but the Ducati stator ONLY has green, white and 2 yellow leads - so it is not the part I'd expect - do you know what model it is for?

[Steve Brown]

Gillardoni barrels have larger liner spigots and the matching crankcases have correspondingly larger barrel mouths to suit.

Barrel heights and pushrod lengths are slightly different too.

Paul, I have a set of ex Kanguro Gilardoni barrels fitted to my Sport. They fitted straight on, no mods needed.

[Steve Brown]

Morini Tom, thanks, this is great stuff!!!

Yes all good info.

So one of my basket case 350 engines is a "S" for sport, and the cam has a small "s"stamped between the cylinder lobes. All my engines have the cap screws under the altenator. I have both gilardoni and cast iron sleeve barrels sets - any way of telling which went on which? - only by piston size? I see a post by paul that the crankcase mouth size should be different, but both cases seem the same.

S on a cam is the Sport version. If you have Gilardoni then as Tom says they are from a K type or later, or a Kanguro. The pistons and the barrels will have a stamping on them A, B or C etc and they are a tolerance indicator. e.g. B pistons go with B barrels etc.
I agree about the spigot size too, I have a set of Gilardonis on my 76 Sport. They fit nicely and I think make less mechanical noise. The clearance is noticeably less too, even without measuring equipment.

the complete engine now in the kanguro is not stamped S, has steel liner barrels and has cap screws under the altenator, making it an early 80's strada?

the engine that I think came out of the kanguro has an x stamped on the left crankcase next to the morini logo.

I think the Kanguros cases were stamped X so, looks like you have a Kanguro Sport-a very desirable rarity!

** OK, a casual check of how far the tappet comes out of the case on full lift gives me around 5.6mm so a E cam seems likely - it is an X1 kanga

You can impress the lads down the pub if you have an 'E type' cam.

Also, the outrigger bearing for the pickup side of the camshaft - did it appear in a certain year or only on mechanical tacho bikes? My 500 camel doesn't have it...

Not sure what year the outrigger appeared but it was only for the mechanical tacho.

[Steve Brown]

Tom
I hope you have a quick answer for this:

I have a NOS stator, the part number on the box is 460584, but the Ducati stator ONLY has green, white and 2 yellow leads - so it is not the part I'd expect - do you know what model it is for?

That sounds like the later stator. White is an auxiliary earth and connects to the bianco connection on the transducers as a belt and braces set up. So you can use it on any 350/500 Morini and just remove the red wire that normally feeds into the stator on the older type.

[tried-them-all]

** OK, a casual check of how far the tappet comes out of the case on full lift gives me around 5.6mm so a E cam seems likely - it is an X1 kanga

You can impress the lads down the pub if you have an 'E type' cam.


Steve, Ironically, showing up at a pub here on a kanguro get you: "what the hell is that?" rather than "Gee WOW! a kanguro fitted with an E cam!"