frame numbers
frame numbers
hi i have got a 3 1/2 morini of the 1977 model (ithink) it had an alluminium plate stuck on with a frame and engine no stamped on it. it also has an engine no stamped on the engine when iremoved the ally plate there is no number stamped on the steel plate is this usual or have i got a ringer any help would be welcome
Re: frame numbers
Unusual.
The number should be stamped in the plate welded between the frame rails at the rear of the engine not on a detachable plate. That does not mean it is a ringer as perhaps morini supplied new frames without numbers as replacement for accident damage? I do not know but in those circumstances dvla accept the details of the old chassis..or used to. What is not acceptable is DIY stamping of the numbers or using a plate to cover the original numbers.
If in doubt the police vehicle examiner can check by using Acid to see if there are hidden digits ground out of the frame. Of course that can open up a whole new can of worms and lead to potential seizure of the vehicle.
It is your bike.your choice but any comeback in future would lead to your door should problems exist. Always best to check things out on purchase.believe nothing without evidence and protect yourself and your money.
The number should be stamped in the plate welded between the frame rails at the rear of the engine not on a detachable plate. That does not mean it is a ringer as perhaps morini supplied new frames without numbers as replacement for accident damage? I do not know but in those circumstances dvla accept the details of the old chassis..or used to. What is not acceptable is DIY stamping of the numbers or using a plate to cover the original numbers.
If in doubt the police vehicle examiner can check by using Acid to see if there are hidden digits ground out of the frame. Of course that can open up a whole new can of worms and lead to potential seizure of the vehicle.
It is your bike.your choice but any comeback in future would lead to your door should problems exist. Always best to check things out on purchase.believe nothing without evidence and protect yourself and your money.
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morinisport
- Posts: 22
- Joined: 28 Apr 2006 18:01
- Location: London
Re: frame numbers
You are not alone - I also have a 76/77 31/2 Sport with no frame number on the usual plate. Registered in 78 - I acquired it in 93 - it has been off the road for a few years. Do wonder what the DVLA will say when it is re-commissioned. Currently the frame is back to bare metal - no evidence that there has ever ever been a frame No. It has been suggested this bike may also have had a replacement frame in the past but nothing documented - was this common place rather than writing a bike off?
Re: frame numbers
Replacement jap and British frames in the 70's were supplied unstamped. I have no knowledge of morini frames of the era but doubt they were any different.The thing is that in those days no one really bothered. New frames were usually too expensive so we bought second hand and built our bikes into them,often just swopping the reg plates!!
It is now virtually impossible to get an mot unless the tester is happy with what he sees. I am glad this is the case.
It is now virtually impossible to get an mot unless the tester is happy with what he sees. I am glad this is the case.
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corsaro chris
- Posts: 1179
- Joined: 13 Jul 2006 21:28
- Location: Berks, UK
Re: frame numbers
Interesting topic...
The Club used to have some guideline numbers on the site, and we're in the process of reviewing these numbers to make them a little more accurate, starting with the 500s (because we know that there are fewer of those).
UK "Officialy Imported" machines had matching engine and frame numbers, but those for the Italian market (and other European countries?) had just frame numbers I believe. This was stamped, as mentioned, on a metal plate welded between the rear down tubes, difficult to read in poor light.
The Dutch club site has some indiactive numbers which give a guide to registrations / years which help, and contacting the MRC librarian can give access to further information on this. The Vintage Club also run a very good dating service (which you pay for) using the services of a very knowledgeable MRC member (not me!).
Wise advice to check out any origins as given by Buell, though...
Good luck,
CC
The Club used to have some guideline numbers on the site, and we're in the process of reviewing these numbers to make them a little more accurate, starting with the 500s (because we know that there are fewer of those).
UK "Officialy Imported" machines had matching engine and frame numbers, but those for the Italian market (and other European countries?) had just frame numbers I believe. This was stamped, as mentioned, on a metal plate welded between the rear down tubes, difficult to read in poor light.
The Dutch club site has some indiactive numbers which give a guide to registrations / years which help, and contacting the MRC librarian can give access to further information on this. The Vintage Club also run a very good dating service (which you pay for) using the services of a very knowledgeable MRC member (not me!).
Wise advice to check out any origins as given by Buell, though...
Good luck,
CC
"I'll use the Morini"
Re: frame numbers
how can a frame be dated without a reference number?
all that can be said is that it was produced , or rather;potentially produced during the life of the 350 production run. not much use sadly.
i am not being negative simply realistic as i know how intransigent dvla are.
all that can be said is that it was produced , or rather;potentially produced during the life of the 350 production run. not much use sadly.
i am not being negative simply realistic as i know how intransigent dvla are.
Re: frame numbers
First, what country are you in? Here in NZ the plate you describe is called a VIN plate and if you don't have one, you can have a hard time getting it past a tester.
I'm sure it can be narrowed down to a few years if people chime in with where the various lugs and seat support brackets etc. are placed depending on the year.
Cheers,
DD
A little detective work, perhaps? Is it kinked at the front, was it originally red or black? Does it have fitments for LH or RH gearchange? Is the swing-arm for a drum or a disc?how can a frame be dated without a reference number?
I'm sure it can be narrowed down to a few years if people chime in with where the various lugs and seat support brackets etc. are placed depending on the year.
Cheers,
DD
MRC 3082½
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morinipete
- Posts: 166
- Joined: 03 Jun 2007 08:45
- Location: Rugby, UK
Re: frame numbers
I may have missed something but going back to the original post, have you got a V5 ? If so, and it has a frame number listed on it, I'd just stamp that on the frame (it's what should have been done at the time if a damaged/scrap frame was replaced with an un-stamped new replacement - which I'm sure will be what has happened).
If there were 2 bikes registered with that same frame number it would have 'popped up' before now. If you don't have a V5 admittedly you might have a problem.
Pete
PS. Out of interest I have a friend with a Triumph log book which has "frame number: Unstated, engine number: Unstated" on it. It originally came with a very leaky but very fast T150 Trident which we think may have been a factory hack. That number plate (needless to say) appears of both a Trident AND a Bonneville (he can't ride 2 at once) and he's never had a problem with MoTs, etc. Times are a changing though............
If there were 2 bikes registered with that same frame number it would have 'popped up' before now. If you don't have a V5 admittedly you might have a problem.
Pete
PS. Out of interest I have a friend with a Triumph log book which has "frame number: Unstated, engine number: Unstated" on it. It originally came with a very leaky but very fast T150 Trident which we think may have been a factory hack. That number plate (needless to say) appears of both a Trident AND a Bonneville (he can't ride 2 at once) and he's never had a problem with MoTs, etc. Times are a changing though............
Re: frame numbers
Probably not. The DVLA have been writing down the type approval number on Italian bikes instead of the frame number for years.morinipete wrote:If there were 2 bikes registered with that same frame number it would have 'popped up' before now.
Paul Compton
http://www.morini-mania.co.uk
http://www.youtube.com/user/EVguru
http://www.morini-mania.co.uk
http://www.youtube.com/user/EVguru
Re: frame numbers
I had this with an SP1 (Honda) where the frame number and engine number had been damaged, (it was cheap on Ebay) so I spoke to the DVLA and they told me that as long as the VIN plate was OK then all was fine as the bike was not registered stolen. Surprisingly the VIN was intact.
Not trusting to the DVLA alone I went to see the local police and they said the same thing. If the bike was registered stolen then it may have a different thing.
I don'y know why the bike was tampered with, but there you are.
It has been through many Mot's since as it now belongs to my son, without any problems. As an added precaution I kept all the documentation from Ebay, the PO's address and phone number, and I took a witness with to collect.
We won't be able to sell for much but we got a really good bike with a lot of character for little money.
Always try and get as much info as you can and check for stolen or damaged.
Cheers.
Not trusting to the DVLA alone I went to see the local police and they said the same thing. If the bike was registered stolen then it may have a different thing.
I don'y know why the bike was tampered with, but there you are.
It has been through many Mot's since as it now belongs to my son, without any problems. As an added precaution I kept all the documentation from Ebay, the PO's address and phone number, and I took a witness with to collect.
We won't be able to sell for much but we got a really good bike with a lot of character for little money.
Always try and get as much info as you can and check for stolen or damaged.
Cheers.
Singer 185K
Wheel Horse commando 7
Honda SS90 1965
Wheel Horse commando 7
Honda SS90 1965
Re: frame numbers
Daddy Dom
You are totally correct but if you check my post I referred to the production run which takes into account variations as a matter of course. The point is that without factory numbers no frame can be definitively dated. Admittedly morini numbers are not easy to date anyway due to haphazard recording and use hence dvla may be appeased by any facts presented. Unfortunately it seems that they are not very helpful in situations were dispute exists.
2.In the case of the Honda,somewhat different as numbers exist,albeit tampered with if I understand the thread or correctly?
I still feel you were lucky to get dvla backing however with no stolen vehicle marker in force it is hard for them to overcome challenge.
3.re the advice on stamping the frame.if the vin plate you no have is accepted by your mot station I feel it best to leave it on. Self stamping is never tidy or uniform unless you know what you are doing and have excellent stamp punches. It will look more suspicious than it does now unless executed well.
As ever the choice remains ith the owner..but why make waves and complicate things
You are totally correct but if you check my post I referred to the production run which takes into account variations as a matter of course. The point is that without factory numbers no frame can be definitively dated. Admittedly morini numbers are not easy to date anyway due to haphazard recording and use hence dvla may be appeased by any facts presented. Unfortunately it seems that they are not very helpful in situations were dispute exists.
2.In the case of the Honda,somewhat different as numbers exist,albeit tampered with if I understand the thread or correctly?
I still feel you were lucky to get dvla backing however with no stolen vehicle marker in force it is hard for them to overcome challenge.
3.re the advice on stamping the frame.if the vin plate you no have is accepted by your mot station I feel it best to leave it on. Self stamping is never tidy or uniform unless you know what you are doing and have excellent stamp punches. It will look more suspicious than it does now unless executed well.
As ever the choice remains ith the owner..but why make waves and complicate things