Ignition Timing

[Guzziando]

I finally got around to checking the ignition timing. My bike has a NLM Transducer, coils and a red pickup. I set the pickup correct with the arrow as a starting point, and then checked it with a timing (strobe) light. I could not get the timing mark to line up, the mark on the flywheel was about 25mm to the right of the engine casing mark. I was on fill adjustment of the pickup, what am I doing wrong?

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[Steve Brown]

The pick up mark is as you said a starting point setting. The timing should then be checked at 6,000 rpm for full advance (the ANT1 mark) That is what you're doing, isn't it?
PMS=TDC
ANT=Max advance.

[Guzziando]

Yes, I positioned the flywheel approximately where the timing light is showing it when at full advance. I cannot get it any nearer the engine marking than that. I am assuming the pick-up middle is keyed to the shaft, so there is no adjustment there? Not sure how I can get the ANT line and engine marking to line up when checking with the timing light.

[morini_tom]

What Steve says.

Also, I assume the cam timing is set correctly? (Yes the rotor is keyed to the cam, but if you’ve not assembled it yourself then definitely check it is) -and the rotor is a pressed up assembly and they can get loose so check that’s not happened too.

And: There are two types of red pickup which have different rotors. You have the type 2 pressed rotor which should be paired with a pickup that has 7mm exposed iron strips in its inside bore. Series 1 have 13mm strips exposed and pair with the die cast rotor.

Oh, And: I tend not to worry too much about the idle advance. So long as the full advance at 6000rpm is correct. They seem to come off idle advance quite early so provided it starts ok and the full advance is right, don’t lose sleep if it seems that at tick over it’s already a long way to full advance. I think a mistake many make is setting the idle advance at tickover and then wondering why the full advance is out.

Also: there is of course no way to set individual cylinders on the Morini pickup so it’s worth making some marks on your flywheel in the correct place for the rear cylinder and strobing both cylinders, then set the pickup in the position that gives the best compromise if they differ.

And Finally: it’s hard to see in your picture but the edges of the magnet inside your pickup rotor look rough in your photo. The magnet should be smooth and circular. Any irregularities in the diameter could do odd things with the triggering

[Guzziando]

Thank you for your replies. I have checked the rotor, it has the 7mm iron strips, so appears to be the correct pick-up and magnet combination. I have not had the engine appart, and only owned it for a couple of months. How do I check / adjust the cam timing? When the engine is at 6000rpm, the marks will not line up. I have also marked ANT2 on the flywheel, and this is also giving the same results. I will also check the magnets for uniformity. I am asuming that running a red pick-up with an NLM Tranducer would not affect my inability to set the timing correctly?

[morini_tom]

Cam timing is checked as described on page 82 onwards of the blue book (available to download from the members area) but essentially, TDC of front cylinder the PMS1 mark on the flywheel should line up with the dot on the crankcase ( around the 9 o clock position on an early flywheel like yours) and the dot punched into the top camshaft pulley should be at the 12 or 6 o clock position depending if on compression or gas exchange stroke.

NLM transducer. Hard to say as it depends what type of pickup it was built for and I’m not sure how you’d check. Originally there were red and black pickups from the factory and they differ in there being a diode either in the pickup or the transducer, so the correct transducer/pickup pairing is critical. NLM probably offered transducers with and without a diode.

Finally- see attached (poor!) markup of your pickup photo hopefully showing what I mean about the magnet- the magnet (arrowed) should be a circular discbut there is an area I’ve scribbled in red on that doesn’t look like it is.

[3potjohn]

If I was refitting the pickup from scratch I’d want the cutaway to be facing at about the four o clock position. See fig 23 page 23 of the Blue book.
These magnets can get cocked on the shaft when removing so try and avoid that, or you will break into a sweat.
Also see

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=99OyzfdVd ... luZw%3D%3D

[Guzziando]

I tried to remove the maget (centre part of the pickup, but it is very tight to the shaft. The previous owner did not use the cupped washer, so the aluminium is now crimped onto the threads:

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That would explain why the magnet looks damaged, someone has levered it off previously? How do I remove it without damaging the pick-up?

I checked the markings on the crank and cam, they seem prety close, and I certainly would not manage to move the cam belt one tooth either way.

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I did try using a timing wheel to check the valve timing, but it made no sense to me, so gave up. I did however notice that the inlet valve tappet gap got very tight when I turned the engine, even though it was not on a section when the valve opens. I assumed that the gap would remain constant?

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I still feel I am no closer to solving the problem of why my timing is out, and I am unable to adjust it to rectify this. Thank you for your suggestions so far.

[Guzziando]

I managed to get the magnet off using the 'allen key' method someone else suggested.

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Are there any obvious issues?

Does anyone know where I can get the cupped washer?

[Guzziando]

I have been messing around with my timing wheel a bit more. If I have been doing it correctly, I have found the following:

Inlet opens at approximately 24 Degrees before TDC, it should be 12 Degress for a Strada.

Exhaust opens 70 Degrees after TDC, it should be 42 Degrees before BDC. Providing it is not a sport Camshaft (how would I know)? It would appear that the pulley needs to be moved?

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I am confused about how to go about this, the Blue Book refers to more than one woodruff keyway. I assume that I remove the nut from the end of the Camshaft, and follow the instructions on setting the inlet to 12 Degrees. I do not have the special tool shown in the book, I assume that I can manage without it?

If I move the pulley, this might give me the additional movement to set the ignition timing correctly....

[3potjohn]

https://www.mdinaitalia.co.uk/M460565WASHERCUP.html

[morini_tom]

I have been messing around with my timing wheel a bit more. If I have been doing it correctly, I have found the following:

Inlet opens at approximately 24 Degrees before TDC, it should be 12 Degress for a Strada.

Exhaust opens 70 Degrees after TDC, it should be 42 Degrees before

Before measuring the timing, have you set the tappet clearances to 1.0mm? Cam timings are quoted at 1.0mm cold clearance (as opposed to 0.1mm running clearance.

Also note the exhaust timing is 42 degrees before bottom dead centre for a strada cam, not top.

Regarding the keyways there are 3 external keyways:

One on the crank which locates the flywheel.

One on the crank which locates the lower belt pulley

One on the cam which locates the upper belt pulley.

The upper pulley is keyed onto the cam in a fixed position and the dot on the pulley is the timing mark. You can’t change the position of this pulley relative to the cam.

The flywheel is keyed onto the crank in a fixed position and again the dot on the crankcase is the timing mark. You can’t change the position of the flywheel relative to the crank.

If the PMS1 timing mark on the flywheel lines up with the dot on the crankcase and the upper pulley dot lines up with the 12 o clock position then the timing is correct (at least won’t be far out)

if the timing marks are a small amount out (less than a tooth) then the lower belt pulley has vernier adjustment by means of multiple keyways on its bore so you can move it relative to the woodruff key on the crank. But this is only to enable fine adjustment to line up the dots.

I would check and double check your timing measurement method before trying to move the cam relative to the crank, especially if that then resulted in the dots not aligning.

[Guzziando]

Thank you very much for your advice. I now understand regarding valve timing adjustment. Removing the crank pulley looks quite tricky, so will leave well alone unless I run out of options.

I will check the valve timing again, following the correct procedure.

[Guzziando]

After further investigation, I think I have found the problem. When turning the crank, sometimes the cambelt was not turning the bottom sprocket, and appeared to be stationary. This may explain not being able to get the timing correct. I removed the belt, and the bottom sprocket came off by hand, so I can now check the timing correctly, and make adjustments. It will need threadlocking back on.

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[MickeyMoto]

It should have a Woodruff key in the crankshaft