Fuel - E5 - E10 - Aspen - so many questions

Anything to do with motorcyles
rikpward
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Fuel - E5 - E10 - Aspen - so many questions

Post by rikpward »

I have a few questions regarding fuel for all and I am sure that some parts of this have already been discussed.

:?: 1. E5 - This is the current standard in our 95RON and 97/98/99RON (aka super). I understand that there is a little problem with this fuel, but just don't leave it in the tank standing over the winter - is this a fair assumption?

(Perhaps I should point out that E5 refers to 5% ethanol. It's also worth pointing out that Ethanol degrades faster than petroleum and hence the shorter life span. Also, Ethanol encourages condensation, so leaving it in an older bike means rust)

:?: 2. E10 - as of 1st September, E10 is being introduced into the fuel supply, but I understand it's only in 95RON and not the "Super" which will remain on the E5. So you can start to see the issue - E10 (10% Ethanol - refer to the point above) means less life span and more condensation. Do we foresee problems?

:?: 3. Is running the Morini like my 350 going to run properly on the E5 97/98/99RON? There is often a misconception about Super being better for the environment and making engines run better... this is not necessarily the case. The RON has nothing to do with explosive power, but the resistance before combustion, hence high compression engines require a higher RON. My concern here is that running a low compression 350 on Super will cause running issues. Maybe the Morini doesn't care? Thoughts?

:?: 4. Aspen - has anyone run a motorcycle on this stuff? It's friggin expensive and promises wonders that I am struggling to believe. here is my nearest and cheapest supplier: https://masseys-diy.co.uk/product/aspen ... -5-litres/ - that £21.00 for 5l... so a day trip in the Peaks for me will cost between £60- £80 on the Morini, plus a fuel stop at the garden centre. Is it any good? Can it be mixed with the standard fuel at the pump (I would not have thought so). Does anyone have experience with this stuff?
3potjohn
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Re: Fuel - E5 - E10 - Aspen - so many questions

Post by 3potjohn »

Aspen is good for lawnmowers and other petrol powered garden equipment, and is useful for Coleman petrol stoves. Last time I bought some it was around £15 so cheaper by volume than Coleman fuel. It does not degrade so quickly as conventional petrol.
I line any metal tanks after appropriate chemical cleaning with POR15 tank sealant from Frosts and have done so for many years. One Morini tank had upwards of 23 holes once it was cleaned so that was beyond redemption. I have avoided fibreglass tanks as think this is a bad idea, though had a soft spot for a BSA Barracuda once.

By all means drain motorcycle carbs before any storage. I have always done this.

One way or another we are approaching a slippery slope with infernal combustion engines.
I am approaching 50 years of motorcycling and have had some real fun and got through plenty of Red Hermetite ( I call it the golden age of motorcycling). I also experienced winters in Wiltshire with temperatures approaching -17 oC on occasion and the clothing I rode in then was woefully inadequate. Maybe all the fuel I burned has helped, hardly get a frost nowadays at least where I currently live, not yet “Zero “ chance you might say.
I shall try and avoid E10 but this may not be easy. Or maybe just run with it. We were worried about removal of tetra ethyl lead once too.At least I am not yet faced with a ULEZ. Not yet.......
I always have my Dawes Galaxy to fall back on.
John
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Ming
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Re: Fuel - E5 - E10 - Aspen - so many questions

Post by Ming »

All I can say is that during my 50 odd years of riding, I have never experienced a problem with fuel going 'off'. More pertinently, over the last 15 years in France, running almost exclusively on supermarket unleaded, in 4 stroke and 2 stroke engines, bikes, mowers and chainsaws, no fuel related problems. I still have a nearly full bottle of 'Morrey's' lubricant, sold to me when I bought my Strada from NLM about 20 years ago. A month ago I put a Yamaha 125 back on the road after 7 years in a barn with 20l of petrol in the tank and the tank was unrusted, the fuel useable.
Conclusion? - I shan't worry about E10 until the problems start to occur, it's quite possible we will be legislated off the road by then.
hendre
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Re: Fuel - E5 - E10 - Aspen - so many questions

Post by hendre »

correction: E5 refers to "up to 5% ethanol". Most premium fuels (RON98) have hardly or no ethanol in them. Shame they do not have a E0 rating for fuels...
Morini's tended to drive better on RON98 anyhow, they were made in the era that RON101 was standard fuel in Italy. My older Ital bikes nerver liked RON95 anyhow and i do not do a lot of miles so I always use RON98.
hendre
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Re: Fuel - E5 - E10 - Aspen - so many questions

Post by hendre »

I did a little "test" a few years back when E10 was introduced in Germany: viewtopic.php?p=14834#p14834
mbmm350s
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Re: Fuel - E5 - E10 - Aspen - so many questions

Post by mbmm350s »

Hi Rik

In recent years we haven't had any issues with tank rot or fuel going off,
but we tend to use the bikes regularly even in winter they will get out at least once a month.
As to 95/97/98 we don't notice any real difference on the road except that my records
show an improved fuel consumption with 97 or 98 but it's quite small.
So in general I would tend to use 97 or 98
Also fuel consumption has improved over what was the case twenty years ago.

some issues i have had though.

1. fuel pipes need to be proper ethanol resistant designed for fuel.
I now also use pipe clips for extra security.
2. Even the balance tube between carbs, if fitted, i have had that crack and swell, despite being claimed ethanol resistant.
3. Floats jamming in carb bodies and causing flooding, never had this before,
not once in 40 years until the last two or three years.
The white floats seem to be particularly bad, but its even happend with the old solid floats.
4. Petrol taps either jamming or leaking or both, I hang originality and have fitted new up to date taps.
I am not about to set myself on fire for the sake of originality.

I have also replaced all the float valve needles with viton tipped version but to be honest
i don't think there was ever an issue with the old ones
You might want to cut a new seal for the tank filler from viton sheet.

3 out of 3 Morinis idle fine and have standard jetting, or very close to standard.
So I really dont think E5 fuel requires drastic changes to jetting, we will see with E10.

I also have some Morris lubricant thing, honestly I am not sure if it does anything or not,
but all the bikes have clean carbs and clean plugs.

The wet ethanol has I think contributed to failure in metal fuel pipes on two Subarus and a filler neck has rotted too.
Cheers
Mark
MickeyMoto
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Re: Fuel - E5 - E10 - Aspen - so many questions

Post by MickeyMoto »

The internal combustion engines has a lot to offer. Synthetic fuels appear the way forward. Just need a good source of clean electricity.

JCB are running an existing engine on hydrogen.

We are heading the wrong way with Lithium ion batteries. They are only clean at point of use. They are still dirty in their production and delivery and now their end of life...
rikpward
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Re: Fuel - E5 - E10 - Aspen - so many questions

Post by rikpward »

Thanks for everyone's input. Some useful advice. I also didn't know E5 meant "up to 5%", but could mean near zero... Does that go for the E10 too? :lol:

My tank is heading to Dream Machine for refreshment (no holes) and ill put it to them about lining.

It was the carbs and general running that bothered me.

As for going down the lithium battery route I hear you. Dreadful pollution involved in the manufacture and disposal. That why I follow Toyota closely, as they do not have a 100% EV commitment but a greener outlook. EV is short term thinking.

Thanks again.
harrymuffin
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Re: Fuel - E5 - E10 - Aspen - so many questions

Post by harrymuffin »

Never had problems running a 1000 Vincent on 100% methanol or a Velo KTT MK1 both racing machines or general over the counter Cleveland Discol which was around 30% alchohol on the road, they all went must faster and the road cars and bikes much smoother. Rubber fuel pipes were what you got from Vale-Onslows and float tips were what came with the Amals.
Steve Brown
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Re: Fuel - E5 - E10 - Aspen - so many questions

Post by Steve Brown »

harrymuffin wrote: 06 Aug 2021 22:23 Never had problems running a 1000 Vincent on 100% methanol or a Velo KTT MK1 both racing machines or general over the counter Cleveland Discol which was around 30% alchohol on the road, they all went must faster and the road cars and bikes much smoother. Rubber fuel pipes were what you got from Vale-Onslows and float tips were what came with the Amals.
Yes! and whippet food was tuppence a pound too. You tell that to the young people of today-and they won't believe you!
All donations to the rest home for old Camels, Leicestershire.
mbmm350s
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Re: Fuel - E5 - E10 - Aspen - so many questions

Post by mbmm350s »

MickeyMoto wrote: 06 Aug 2021 08:23 The internal combustion engines has a lot to offer. Synthetic fuels appear the way forward. Just need a good source of clean electricity.

JCB are running an existing engine on hydrogen.

We are heading the wrong way with Lithium ion batteries. They are only clean at point of use. They are still dirty in their production and delivery and now their end of life...
I tend to agree with this:
I have spent the last twenty years in semi conductor manufacturing. Its an industry that in order to supply what the consumer needs consumes vast amounts of energy.
Smart phone processor chips consume far more energy in their production than they ever do in their entire lifetime. Perversly to save power at the point of use we have to use ever more complex processing and technology and use ever more power to get there. It rather a case of robbing Peter to pay Paul. The largest semi conductor foundries use dedicated Nuclear Power stations, and TSMC are contemplating building another to make 5nm and below Smart phone chips and Automotive chips predominantly. Its perhaps a surprise to know that each cell phone chip takes in excess of 60 litres of purified water in its production.
Battery production , lcd panels etc, also consume huge amounts of energy in their production, foundries have robust policies about the procurement of and shipping/processing of the special metals needed but the environmental consequences are not great. We never fully recover the energy by recycling semi conductors, its hard, and they are small so the public doesn't consider it.
This is a plea to make simple non polluting vehicles with 100% end of life energy recycling, not ever more complex vehicles (electric or otherwise) that simply move the problem of emissions somewhere else.
Mark
MickeyMoto
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Re: Fuel - E5 - E10 - Aspen - so many questions

Post by MickeyMoto »

Yep. Social media is a huge user of energy and the end product is heat. We never hear of the environmental damage done by data centres

The West has shipped it's pollution to the east. Our total output is far greater than the total given for one country.

We are running in circles.
3potjohn
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Re: Fuel - E5 - E10 - Aspen - so many questions

Post by 3potjohn »

The extraction of metals from Africa is well known. But where next? American and more recently Chinese are probing Mars. No doubt looking for so called rare earth metals.Yet at the same time Earth is changing.Fires rage and floods happen. Iran for example has an extreme water shortage. Maybe these things always occurred but nobody knew.
Looking back in time there were periods with high CO2 levels and a warm climate so it’s not unprecedented. That of course was not due to human activity.
John
MickeyMoto
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Re: Fuel - E5 - E10 - Aspen - so many questions

Post by MickeyMoto »

I look forward to a renaissance in the English wine industry last seen in the warm period 500 years ago.
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Ming
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Re: Fuel - E5 - E10 - Aspen - so many questions

Post by Ming »

MickeyMoto wrote: 11 Aug 2021 06:24 I look forward to a renaissance in the English wine industry last seen in the warm period 500 years ago.
Côte de Tyne? :wink:
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