New Owner with 501XE Camel

Camel, Sahara, Kanguro, Coguaro
Ted
Posts: 38
Joined: 02 Jan 2022 13:58
Location: Paola, KS USA

Re: New Owner with 501XE Camel

Post by Ted »

I'm happy to report that my 501 is officially a running motorcycle once again! Quick video for those interested:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1mNuG4U0AY

After coating the tank with POR 15 and letting everything dry, I put the tank on, put the petcocks back in, put in some in-line see-through fuel filters for good measure, and then hooked all the hoses up, filled the tank, and turned the fuel on to bleed out the system.

This is my first kick-start motorcycle, and it's been a long time since I've owned a carbureted motorcycle. On my first attempt I turned on the idle enrichment, had the fuel on, and I'm pretty sure I flooded the thing. Bunch of kick attempts and it didn't fire. So I shut everything off, walked away, came out a few hours later at which point it fired up and I took that above video.

The idle was, of course, too high. I got it lowered to around 1,000 RPM, but need to also sync the carbs for idle. It seemed to run pretty well how I had it but I'm sure it's not correct. I have a carb balancing tool, I'll do that over the weekend or sometime next week. Idle mixture seems correct, but I'm guessing idle airflow isn't quite right and will require readjustment. I'll have to get used to how this thing likes to be started.

With it running, I was able to check out the electrical system for full functionality. The headlight works correctly, which is the most important part. So does the taillight, but I knew that one already. The turn signals and horn don't appear to work at all, so those I need to look into more. The horn is probably corroded connections, but I'm not sure about the turn signals.

I figure I'd like to check the ignition timing to make sure that it's set correctly, not knowing who set it or messed with it in the past. However the engine was seemingly quite responsive, so I don't think it can be too far off.

I'm very excited! Now to diagnose the couple minor system issues, get the brakes hooked up to get them working, and ride it.
Ted
Posts: 38
Joined: 02 Jan 2022 13:58
Location: Paola, KS USA

Re: New Owner with 501XE Camel

Post by Ted »

I'm hoping that I'll be able to ride the Camel within the next couple of weeks. This weekend I hope to be able to get the brackets fabricated for the brake calipers, and I have hoses of what I think should be the correct length coming to adapt the Ninja brake calipers and master cylinders that I'll be using.

The two systems that seemed to not be working on the bike were the horn and the turn signals. The horn is getting voltage at the connectors when I push the button, but the horn itself has infinite resistance. So, I need a new horn. That one is simple.

The turn signals, I'm hoping someone can provide some more details on how they function. When I turn the turn signal on (either left or right), the "TURN" indication on the instrument cluster illuminates, but none of the turn signal bulbs illuminate. I removed the front headlamp to get at the wires behind it, traced to the first connector I could get at, and found left and right were both getting a voltage, but that voltage was only 0.15V. Some more tracing is in order. However, the first item that comes to my mind is the flasher relay, or whatever it uses. I couldn't find a flasher relay, at least not of the type that I'm used to. What do these motorcycles use for a flasher relay, or module?

I've started the bike a few more times since my first start on Friday and am getting the hang of what it likes. Once I get the carbs sync'd I imagine that will make starting easier, but I've been impressed with how smooth and responsive the engine is just revving it a bit.
3potjohn
Posts: 1243
Joined: 02 Jun 2007 13:58
Location: Devon

Re: New Owner with 501XE Camel

Post by 3potjohn »

The flasher relays I have seen on my Morinis are of the 2 pin metal cased cylindrical type about 1 inch in diameter. On my Coguaro it is mounted on a rubber strap in front of the tank under the upper triple tree area. ( if I am using correct parlance). If not maybe under the tank? Things that can affect flasher include bad connections, bad flasher unit, incorrect wattage bulbs for the relay, dirty bulb contact points, old correct bulbs that appear to be OK.
Bike is looking good.
John
'It must be a .....'
Posts: 365
Joined: 12 Sep 2010 12:25

Re: New Owner with 501XE Camel

Post by 'It must be a .....' »

The 501 XE horn and turn signal 6V circuits are linked together at the dash/instrument lights
The 6V indicator relay is located to the left of the lower triple tree; small cylinder in rubber mount with a purple and red wire
The purple wires also connect at the spade/Lucar terminal block (black) behind the head stock

Back in the 1990s the horn stopped working due to a spade connector coming off the bulb holder of the turn signal dash light

Trust this helps, have fun
'It must be a .....'
Posts: 365
Joined: 12 Sep 2010 12:25

Re: New Owner with 501XE Camel

Post by 'It must be a .....' »

Sorry, I just checked and the 6V indicator/flasher relay wires are purple and orange
Ted
Posts: 38
Joined: 02 Jan 2022 13:58
Location: Paola, KS USA

Re: New Owner with 501XE Camel

Post by Ted »

Ahh, I think that probably answers the question - the flasher relay was removed for some reason. I had found two wires around the triple tree that weren't connected as well as a rubber mount that looks to be the right size for a flasher relay. I'll do a little more testing to confirm today, but it sounds like the answer is that I just need to order a new horn and flasher relay, and I'll have the bike fully functional (other than brakes).
Ted
Posts: 38
Joined: 02 Jan 2022 13:58
Location: Paola, KS USA

Re: New Owner with 501XE Camel

Post by Ted »

I've made some good progress over the past couple of weeks on the Camel. Yesterday I fabricated up the bracket for adapting the front brake caliper to the bike, and got the brakes working. The system still needs a better job of being bled (I was by myself and didn't have a one-man bleeder setup handy) but it worked enough for me to actually take the thing for a ride around the block for the first time and do a general functional check.

I am really happy on initial impressions with how it rides. Suspension wise I saw no indications of any issues , no pulling, no clunks or funny noises. It rode well and obviously had better off-road tuning than the big BMW R1150GS I've been riding off road. So for now, no issues there to be concerned with.

The engine runs well overall, and the transmission shifts well. All 6 gears work and it shifts nicely going up and back down through the gears. Achieving neutral while stopped seems to be one issue, it seems the clutch is sticking a bit or not fully disengaging. The clutch cable is adjusted correctly, but my first thought is that it just needs to be ridden more and will work itself out given some miles.

Recall the previous owner (now deceased) had a work order in his files complaining the engine wouldn't run above 4,000 RPM. It's a more complicated than that. Yes it will run above 4,000 RPM, but what I really observed was that there seems to be a load limit the engine will accept before it stops making power. This seems like weak ignition to me (have had similar in the past on other vehicles). And since I wanted to do the 12V conversion anyway, I think this makes for a good opportunity to modify the thing to electronic ignition which should help in respects. I need to figure out the ideal way to do this and have a few ideas, but open to what people have done in the past that's worked well for them.
3potjohn
Posts: 1243
Joined: 02 Jun 2007 13:58
Location: Devon

Re: New Owner with 501XE Camel

Post by 3potjohn »

This 4000 rpm barrier seems to be not uncommon.My 507 will pull all the way but at a constant throttle around there in the higher gears it is not smooth or happy. There is a school of thought that replacing the flowerpot in the air filter on these bikes may improve it, which is the opposite of what I had been lead to believe.
I have not got a flowerpot to try, only an actual flowerpot of similar dimensions so if anyone has one......
I can also report the vacuum tap works well. I think a variety of Japanese vacuum tap spares may work too.
The sensor tap I had cracked the copper tube off inside.A replacement Guzzi type is a good 30mm taller and at present just touches the inside of the tank,which interferes with the float action. I intend to bend it very slightly given that its predecessor cracked.
Last edited by 3potjohn on 22 Feb 2022 07:54, edited 1 time in total.
Ted
Posts: 38
Joined: 02 Jan 2022 13:58
Location: Paola, KS USA

Re: New Owner with 501XE Camel

Post by Ted »

Yesterday a friend rode the big old BMW R1150GS in my shop and I rode the Morini on about 30 miles of mostly back dirt/gravel roads, followed by some more technical work on my property. Today I rode it another 5-10 miles of all technical work on my property following my kids around on their little TTR 50. So, I've now been able to make some observations about the bike and riding it.

The new universal clutch cable I got working for it seems to be doing well on the second try, so that was a win although not directly related to the motorcycle itself. I still need to make the rear brake caliper adapter bracket, but the front brakes are working quite well for what they are. Given the reports I've read that the factory brakes on these aren't very good, I imagine it ends up being similar or better. However the low gearing on this bike is very nice off-road, really about perfect in my opinion, and that also results in very good engine braking.

Running wise, the motorcycle did seem to be running better yesterday and today than when I rode it around the block. I'm sure that the engine running some is good for it, but it also is still not ideal. I do suspect that the ignition system is weak and at least partly the cause of this, but given reports on here that the carburetors in the US models are bigger than ideal at 30mm and may benefit from a richer jet, that could be part of it as well. I seem to recall reading that some people find the engine runs better with exhaust baffles removed, I need to see if I can find that reference again.

At this point, I'd say the only really frustrating part is the kick starting. However, given the ignition system design I think this should improve once I upgrade the ignition.

I also think the clutch is not fully disengaging when I pull it in all the way, as it doesn't want to go into neutral at a stop. This is minorly annoying since it means I have to get it into neutral while still moving forward some. However, overall the clutch and transmission work just fine. It may get better as I ride it some more and put some more miles on it.

The rear is a bit too bouncy as-is, and so I think I need to increase the preload on it. As I recall that requires taking the seat off which isn't as straightforward as it should be, but oh well.

So, it seems the next orders of business are a 12V conversion for the bike, as well as making the bracket for the rear brake caliper so that I have those. And from there, the electronic ignition conversion.

Riding the bike is a real joy, though, once I get it running. I love the low gearing which is great for technical off-road. It's light and nimble very controllable and predictable, with good power and torque and a much more interesting sound from the V-twin than a single cylinder thumper.
Steve Brown
Posts: 1390
Joined: 12 Nov 2007 23:44
Location: Leicestershire

Re: New Owner with 501XE Camel

Post by Steve Brown »

Ted, ref the weak ignition system-it's quite possible at this age of a low energy ignition that the coils in the CDI/Transducer boxes are getting old and cranky. Everyone seems to leap straight for the 12 volt conversion and a 12 volt ignition like SWF or Tritsch etc. I have now fixed a handful of similar age Morini with the same midrange fluff as yours by using modern scooter coils. These are available in UK for around £30 each (even cheaper Chinese copies are available and apparently good too) They fit straight in and give a better spark then the originals did when new. As electronics manufacture has also moved on in the last 4 decades they are likely to last longer too.

The Italian ones are made by Ducati Electronica and the part number is 32398112.

I bought mine from a firm here in UK called Beedspeed. I'm sure you will have scootershops in the states though?
I'd be surprised if a pair of these didn't fix the stutter and make it an easier starter too.

The main advantage though is that if you do go to 12 volts the lights will be much better and you won't need to worry if the charging system will give out enough for the ignition as well as the lights, or worry that the if the tiny battery failed you wouldn't be able to proceed.
You can still fit a 12 volt battery in the original holder do that's another job saved.
The lowest priced 12 volt ignitions cost twice as much as the scooter coil fix. That means I can fix twice as many old Morini and still feel smug that it's almost original spec! :wink:
All donations to the rest home for old Camels, Leicestershire.
huub
Posts: 194
Joined: 24 Jul 2006 15:11

Re: New Owner with 501XE Camel

Post by huub »

Nice update , most of the points you found i have had with my morini's too ,
setting up the clutch is pretty critical , and even then the ones on my morini's tend to drag when hot.
( tight tracks when off roading)
you will get used to finding neutral when still riding.
I gave up on the 6 volt system too( now 12 volt with a shindengen mosfet regulator) fitted a LED headlight bulb and a aftermarket ignition (SWF).
I trailered bikes home from all over europe, i am probably showing my age, but my spare time is too valuable to have to worry about 30 year old italian electronics.

I will leave next week for a week of off road riding holiday in spain,
Should be fun, the other riders will show up on modern bikes.
i'm taking the early camel, i'm curious how it will compare.
Ted
Posts: 38
Joined: 02 Jan 2022 13:58
Location: Paola, KS USA

Re: New Owner with 501XE Camel

Post by Ted »

Steve, I'm sure that my ignitions are weak compared to what they were supposed to be when new after nearly 40 years. It's pretty apparent that these are original items from my initial inspection when I pulled the tank and looked around.

As I recall from looking, there were two different ignition coils/transducers used, depending on which magnetic pickups were used. I have the grey ones currently. Looking up that Ducati part number that you provided, it's blue. Do you know whether that corresponds to being an appropriate match for the black or grey transducers? It looks like they're probably set up the black transducers. A quick search here shows them available for $50 each with free returns, so that could be an option to try.

I do believe that giving up on the 6V system is going to happen anyway, though, and so that gives me the option to do what I wish with the ignition system if I decide to upgrade it. As the kick starting is annoying, a goal is to improve that. One thing that will help with that is if I can run a bigger spark plug gap, and so a stronger ignition will help with that.

Another thing that came to my mind yesterday is that the rear shock is probably completely blown out. The rear end is extremely bouncy, and given that the bike is an '86 would make sense that it's blown out entirely. It might just need some more preload, but my guess is that the seals on it are shot. The front seems to be doing better.

Huub, you mentioned a Shindengen Mosfet regulator, do you have a link to what you used? I also agree that spare time is too valuable to have to worry about old electronics and things breaking down or otherwise fiddling with just to do what I want to do. You also mentioned clutch setup - anything to point towards besides making sure the cable is adjusted correctly? If the drag aspect is normal then that's not a big deal.
huub
Posts: 194
Joined: 24 Jul 2006 15:11

Re: New Owner with 501XE Camel

Post by huub »

i am running a shindengen SH 640e-11 rectifier, a choice based on availabilty.
any three fase rectifier should do
there are loads of chinese clones available ,
there are people more knowledgeable than me about clutches , i just make sure they are clean and well set up , and live with the resulting.
My 501 camel came with a yamaha rear shock fitted , and the original one in a box.
they are probably not the best.
Steve Brown
Posts: 1390
Joined: 12 Nov 2007 23:44
Location: Leicestershire

Re: New Owner with 501XE Camel

Post by Steve Brown »

Over here in UK and Europe people are replacing the original shock with either Hagon or YSS. Both available at reasonable cost and at a spec to suit you, if not standard lengths etc.
Those blue coils will work fine on your bike. You may need to wire in a diode in the pick up leads, I can't remember for sure the puick up and coil combinations but they are here if you search. May be easier to find that on the Dutch club website.
Those blue units will definitely give a stronger spark thsn the originals too. The ht coil is bigger for one thing. If your source coil in the flywheel stator is weak and your pick up is dodgy too that's unlucky. You could still buy replacement coils, pick up and transducers/coils for less than the cheapest 12 volt replacement.
I tried an SWF on my 350 Sport but went back to the old style set up. Timing the new one was a pain, very fiddly and starting was either easy with poor running or great running if bump started but kicking back if using your foot. Apparently I am too weak to kickstart with the new kit but can manage the ordinary type. I'm not a Luddite. Well, not completely.
All donations to the rest home for old Camels, Leicestershire.
Ted
Posts: 38
Joined: 02 Jan 2022 13:58
Location: Paola, KS USA

Re: New Owner with 501XE Camel

Post by Ted »

Thanks for the extra details. It looks like the blue Vespa coils match the 350cc transducers, and may have a bit more ignition advance than the 500cc ones. That said that shouldn't be an issue and might help a bit with power. Interesting point on tunability with the electric setup. It looks like I would need to add the diodes in-line from the magnetic pickups for what I have.

I'll consider this a bit more, and maybe I should give that a shot before I attempt a more significant overhaul of the system. At the very least, it might cure the 4000+ RPM hole I've got.
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