Stator problems

Camel, Sahara, Kanguro, Coguaro

Stator problems

Postby Firingonone » 02 Jul 2020 13:06

I have a Kanguro x3. It is not charging. I had the stator rewound and replaced the regulator as both were found faulty by a repair specialist. The rotor was remagnetised .
On reassembly it starts and runs but there is only fluctuating 35 v AC from the yellow wires.There is no output from the regulator.
The specialist has rechecked the rotor(twice ) and can find nothing wrong.
He suggests that either it is the wrong stator for the bike ( he says it is a 1ph stator), wrong rotor or both. They came on the bike and are original as far as I know.

the rotor works on my 75 Strada for running and charging

IMG_20200701_142442450.jpg
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IMG_20200702_131745975.jpg
IMG_20200702_131745975.jpg (347.76 KiB) Viewed 1497 times


I would be grateful for any advice thanks
Firingonone
 
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Re: Stator problems

Postby mbmm350s » 02 Jul 2020 13:47

Hi,

The 35V a.c to earth on the yellow wires is correct.
The regulator has a 12V switched input supply from the battery, marked (C) usually purple but might be brown,
if that is not connected or not functioning the regulator will not work.
The regulator will not work if the battery is very flat.


Your stator has a red and two yellows (3 wire) - that means its 2 phase.
There is no white wire so it appears to be an earlier stator, no matter as this wire is just an earth.
I always thought X3 were equipped with a single phase stator (no red wire) but that doesnt matter too much.

The regulator just needs to be compatible - please send the part number on the regulator. 34xxyy

I think you have a hybrid setup.

First I assume you have the 2 phase regulator.

The red wire is a centre tap and connects to the battery through a fuse, and somewhere it feeds the ignition switch. So typically the B+ terminal
is used as a hookup for Morinis that don't have a fuse board.
The regulator has no output as such the B+ terminal is not connected internally in this case.

If it is standard then what you should have is a per the diagram for the single phase setup

Kanguru_reg_wiring.png
Kanguru regulator wiring
Kanguru_reg_wiring.png (256.01 KiB) Viewed 1491 times


If you have a single phase regulator, then the RED wire from the stator can be left unconnected (taped up) and then the B+ terminal connects to the battery and the ignition switch, at the fuseboard (26) in this case the B+ terminal is connected internally.

I hope this isn't too confusing but you may have a hybrid setup.
What you need to find out is if the regulator has internal connection on B+ or not.

Mark
mbmm350s
 
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Re: Stator problems

Postby Firingonone » 02 Jul 2020 17:50

Thanks for your incredibly rapid and complete reply!

I am afraid I do not have much electrical knowledge

My original regulator, which I was told was defunct, was a Ducati part 343452

IMG_20200425_133636818.jpg
IMG_20200425_133636818.jpg (226.79 KiB) Viewed 1473 times


They supplied me with a Saprisa 7155. I found this on line

7155(2).png
7155(2).png (370.17 KiB) Viewed 1473 times


I was told this should do the job although there were some differences externally.
IMG_20200425_133618501.jpg
IMG_20200425_133618501.jpg (225.03 KiB) Viewed 1473 times


Will it work ? or should I get a Ducati part ,I must admit to having tried most combinations without success.

Thanks again
Firingonone
 
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Re: Stator problems

Postby mbmm350s » 02 Jul 2020 20:56

Hi,
Hopefully you can make it work.
The regulator appears to be intended for 2-phase operation, internally the R terminal will be shorted to B+.
You can check this with a meter set to diode symbol, it will conduct in both directions.
You should see no connection from Y to R/B+ with the regulator disconnected
B+ naturally goes to the battery via a fuse and to the ignition switch - there should be a fuse board on X3 on the way
When the ignition switch is on you should have 12V on the terminal marked with the key symbol, as I said this is important.
The W I dont know - it might be an earth.

Also it is important that the yellow to red is 30-35V a.c and the yellow to yellow is double that, when the regulator is disconnected.
This shows that the stator is 2 phase.Two windings in series with a centre tap.

Can you confirm from the frame number its actually Kanguru X/3 not X/2 (XE)
Earlier Kanguru had a 6V/12V system which was often converted to 12V

The stator you have is not original Kanguru X3, Its an earlier 350 100/120W stator - it doesn't have the thicker lamination pack.
Kanguru X3 should have the so called bodyless stator where there are no coil formers
and the windings are done directly on the stator. This gives much higher output, 160W?
The generator winding (green) should have an extra plate riveted on the end and a white wire.

The rotor may be correct, its an e-start rotor with the back fins.
Is 343452 is a Morini regulator? - some one else can check that, might be a scooter one, it doesn't matter.
when used with the older stator it is OK. checking between B+ and Y will tell you whether it is two phase or single phase.
The single phase should have diode between each Y and R/B+ and the two phase No connection.

Whilst this might not help as such the two phase stator can be used with a single phase regulator by simply
not connecting the red lead. The single phase regulator B+ is connected to the battery.
Single phase = 2 wire (YY), two phase = three wire (YRY).

Long time since I had an X3. Big white beast to tall really for me.

Mark
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Re: Stator problems

Postby Firingonone » 03 Jul 2020 18:48

Thanks for the help I will look into it all over the weekend.
The story behind this is when I got the bike I fitted a trickle charger attachment and kept the battery topped up and it wasn't until I was on a longer trip in winter that ended up in the dark I noticed that it wasn't charging.
The previous owner supplied bills back to 1998 ( it was manufactured in 1989 and imported around1997) one of which shows a used rotor supplied a 460583 by NLM which is the correct one for an x3 it doesn't say why. There are no records of the stator being changed.
Just to confim it is an x3 frame.
Last time I got the stator back it was only producing 30v ac across the yellow wires. With the x3 rotor in the picture .
When I put the x3 rotor (from the x3) on my Strada with it the Stradas original stator it worked, producing over 14 volts dc at the battery.

The repaired stator has 2 yellow a green and a red wire

This is the wiring prior to my removal of the original regulator . The red wire goes to the coils
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1582035768854.jpg
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Thanks again I will let you know what happens.
Firingonone
 
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Re: Stator problems

Postby Firingonone » 05 Jul 2020 18:59

Testing did not go well.

It appears to be a 2 phase regulator.

I put the stator on ,connected the green wire and she started easily.
Unfortunately yellow to red is about 11 v ac , yellow to yellow is 30v ac.

I switched off connected the stator red to white (as it was before) connected the yellows and the purple wire (which I had previously checked had 12v dc when ignition was put on) When I connected the red to B+ the fuse blew with sparks

It seems I have had the wrong stator repaired at great expense & I may or may not have damaged the rectifier. The rotor is probably the right one.

The question is where to go next
Firingonone
 
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Re: Stator problems

Postby mbmm350s » 05 Jul 2020 20:25

Sorry to hear it didn't go well.
White is probably earth as I said before so it's no surprise the fuse blew.
Just because it was like that before doesn't make it right and it does seem like that mods have been made as it not like th X3 wiring diagram.
The measurements quoted are they with the regulator disconnected if so it's not right.
Where are you located?
I would try to source a genuine X3 stator and single phase regulator Mdina stock the Ducati regulator but there are alternatives. X2 I believe had 2 phase system and X1 had the 6V/12V hybrid system someone more knowledgeable on Kanguru hopefully will help.
Rotors are magnetized by passing current through a special stator. A regulator fault or a wiring fault that causes the battery to be discharged through the stator can demagetise the rotor this is most likely why the rotor was changed.
Mark
mbmm350s
 
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Re: Stator problems

Postby mbmm350s » 05 Jul 2020 21:01

I think Saprisa regulators are OEM on some Guzzis.
One things I didn't mention is that for Ducati regulators and probably Saprisa the case must be solid earth and connected to battery negative.
Do not connect the reds to anything other than battery via fuse. I think the white is the historic connection of the white earth lead from the X3 stator which is not present on your stator it is there for EMI reasons.
Mark
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Re: Stator problems

Postby norbert » 05 Jul 2020 22:26

The white cable is definetly earth.
The original X3 stator is the bodyless one with the the wiring directly wounded on the stator without plastic coils (unless the ignition coil, that is the same es ever). This bodyless stator (also to be found in the 501 models without Kokussan) is the strongest of all (leaving apart the Kokussan) with about 200W. With a good flywheel it begins to feed the battery already at idle speed :shock: Therefore it´s the best one using electric starters , handlebar heatings systems and using lights in town traffic :wink:
Today I had to replace my normal Saito 9 Ah lead battery after 15 years using this stator (without electric starter).

norbert
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Re: Stator problems

Postby mbmm350s » 06 Jul 2020 09:06

Hi Norbert,

Thanks, we are sure the white is earth.
for the benefit of the original poster if possible please can you look under the tank and see the Ducati part number on the X3/501 regulator?
may be it also has the Amp rating there too.
I think the original poster should look for the correct X3/501 parts.

Mark
mbmm350s
 
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Re: Stator problems

Postby Firingonone » 06 Jul 2020 09:28

I am in the West of Scotland. I will put up a message to see if anyone has an x3 stator. I will have another go with the regulator and earth the casing directly to the battery and hope I haven't damaged it. Knowing the Ducati part number will be useful if this fails .
Again thanks for the help so far
Firingonone
 
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Re: Stator problems

Postby mbmm350s » 06 Jul 2020 11:21

Hi,
I don't like the voltages from the stator, but please check what the values are when the stator is not connected to the regulator.
I was going to suggest someone we trust to be able to fix it but he would be too far for you to go.
I see that the regulator is fitted to a painted bracket. There is an earth at the top of the picture,
but its not clear how the regulator is earthed.
The wiring schematic shows the regulator body is connected via a blue(BLU) wire to earth.
Better still is to connect to the battery -ve as well
Hopefully nothing has died and getting the correct earth will make it work.
Mark
mbmm350s
 
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Re: Stator problems

Postby Firingonone » 06 Jul 2020 12:35

Hi Mark,
I sent the stator back twice and they are adamant it is functioning correctly and it was they that suggested it might be the wrong unit. The measurements were made with the regulator disconnected, which suggests to me that either it is incompatable with the rotor or maybe off some other Ducati or Morini altogether (although the output is low surely for any bike)
However I tried the rotor on a Strada and got a satisfactory output through the regulator on that bike. I have not tried the "repaired " stator on the Strada.
The earth was put on the mounting bolt for the stator and appears satisfactory.
I suspect I will have to go the "new stator route" (gulp) wish I had known about my stator and just replaced it originally. I could send the stator out if you have someone you recommend.
Firingonone
 
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Re: Stator problems

Postby mbmm350s » 06 Jul 2020 16:20

The measurements were made with the regulator disconnected, which suggests to me that either it is incompatible with the rotor or maybe off some other Ducati or Morini altogether (although the output is low surely for any bike)


Here's my take
The measurements imply the stator is faulty or at least weak if its a standard stator BUT
I am wondering if its a botched 6V/12V hybrid stator as fitted to first series Kanguros and Camels. I thought these had a grey wire though, not two yellows.
There are esoteric faults with rotors such as lost magnetism, or partial magnetism but since the 350 gives a healthy charge I would discount that.
Regulators off other vehicles are fine and long as the Amp rating is the same and its the correct phase variety.

The earth was put on the mounting bolt for the stator and appears satisfactory.


I don't understand that comment The only stators with an earth are the later ones and the earth is riveted on the the stator.
Now I am convinced that its a hybrid 6/12 V Kanguro 1st/2nd series stator which may have been modified to make a 12V stator and its not right.
These stators usually have a grey wire, a yellow, a red and a green and a white earth. 11V O/c yellow/red would be fine for a 6V battery and yellow/yellow(grey) 30V is fine for the 12V headlight. Can some one who has the hybrid system help?


Please dont put the stator on the 350.
I think you should get hold of the correct X3 stator and suitable regulator. There are kanguro stators on ebay but they are not the bodyless type you really want. Mdina Italia have the X3 parts book. Below is a picture I found on the internet of a rebuilt X3 stator, the generator overvoltage plate should (must) be rivetted not screwed. You can see its quite different.
kanguru_stator_x3.png
kanguru_stator_x3.png (280.8 KiB) Viewed 1313 times


Mark
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Re: Stator problems

Postby Firingonone » 06 Jul 2020 19:09

That should have read earth on the regulator not stator.
Will try to get correct stator.
Will let you know how I get on ,thanks for all help.
Firingonone
 
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