the unbearable bearing
the unbearable bearing
After concluding that the left-hand mainbearing will be recycled I probably need to replace/upgrade the right one as well. I have heard of folks kicking out the plain bearing and substituting it for a rollertype. Anyone on this forum perhaps? And will you share how it's done?
Apparently after grinding some off the crankshaft there is a a standard size one available. But I am wondering if the oil will still circultate properly to assure the life of my precious new big-endshells. And does the right engine-half support a new bearing?
I am curious to hear if someone has done this, or maybe I am the first?
I have asked it on the German forum as well, but so far no reply, or my German is completely useless, who knows...
Apparently after grinding some off the crankshaft there is a a standard size one available. But I am wondering if the oil will still circultate properly to assure the life of my precious new big-endshells. And does the right engine-half support a new bearing?
I am curious to hear if someone has done this, or maybe I am the first?
I have asked it on the German forum as well, but so far no reply, or my German is completely useless, who knows...
have you checked a catalogue of plain bearing shells for a substitute?
usually i manage to find a substitute,
for example, the big end shells from my cagiva 900 elefant turned out to be the same as some mitshubishi colt parts... (at one tenth of the price)
i have the dualloys catalogue at home, but it is over 20 years old..
i havent foud a catalogue online yet, but it might be worth the try.
cheers
Hubert
usually i manage to find a substitute,
for example, the big end shells from my cagiva 900 elefant turned out to be the same as some mitshubishi colt parts... (at one tenth of the price)
i have the dualloys catalogue at home, but it is over 20 years old..
i havent foud a catalogue online yet, but it might be worth the try.
cheers
Hubert
NLM had got very short of some 350 big end shell sizes, notably standard of which they had none.
I did quite a lot of searching for alternative big end shells; No matches. I even talked to Federal Mogul who made the original shells, but the tooling is long gone and they wouldn't do a run of less than £10,000 PER SIZE!
I eventually found some OEM standard size shells (to go with my brand new crank).
NLM have now arranged to have shells remanufactured overseas without pushing the cost much over £20 per rod. They should be able to supply all sizes.
I think they had a reasonable number of 500 shells.
The Original crank setup on the 350 was a ball race on both sides of the crank. In order to accommodate expansion, the timing side bearing was meant to be a sliding fit on a hardened sleeve pressed onto the crank. For whatever reason this proved not to be totally reliable and the timing side bearing was converted to a plain type with a larger crank journal and a slight gearing up of the oil pump. I think the first plain bearings were bronze, before going to a white metal, and finally a full circle thin wall in a seperate housing. The plain bearings were designed to fit into the crankcase where the ball race used to be and the only modification was the addition of three bolt holes to install or extract the bearing.
There is a roller bearing with exactly the same dimensions as the original ball race and this can be dropped straignt into an early engine (as long as the hardened sleeve isn't worn). On the later type, you have to have the large journal ground off the crank and the oil feed blocked off. You now have if anything an excess of oil to the big ends and you should make sure the pressure relief valve is in good order. The three holes in the crankcase will have to be plugged to prevent leakage of oil.
I did quite a lot of searching for alternative big end shells; No matches. I even talked to Federal Mogul who made the original shells, but the tooling is long gone and they wouldn't do a run of less than £10,000 PER SIZE!
I eventually found some OEM standard size shells (to go with my brand new crank).
NLM have now arranged to have shells remanufactured overseas without pushing the cost much over £20 per rod. They should be able to supply all sizes.
I think they had a reasonable number of 500 shells.
The Original crank setup on the 350 was a ball race on both sides of the crank. In order to accommodate expansion, the timing side bearing was meant to be a sliding fit on a hardened sleeve pressed onto the crank. For whatever reason this proved not to be totally reliable and the timing side bearing was converted to a plain type with a larger crank journal and a slight gearing up of the oil pump. I think the first plain bearings were bronze, before going to a white metal, and finally a full circle thin wall in a seperate housing. The plain bearings were designed to fit into the crankcase where the ball race used to be and the only modification was the addition of three bolt holes to install or extract the bearing.
There is a roller bearing with exactly the same dimensions as the original ball race and this can be dropped straignt into an early engine (as long as the hardened sleeve isn't worn). On the later type, you have to have the large journal ground off the crank and the oil feed blocked off. You now have if anything an excess of oil to the big ends and you should make sure the pressure relief valve is in good order. The three holes in the crankcase will have to be plugged to prevent leakage of oil.
Paul Compton
http://www.morini-mania.co.uk
http://www.youtube.com/user/EVguru
http://www.morini-mania.co.uk
http://www.youtube.com/user/EVguru
do you have a 350 or 500 (478) motor?
If it's a 350 then you need the sleeve and roller bearing from the original and will have to grind the right-hand journal to fit but the drillings for the oil feed shouldn't give a problem.
If it's a 478 then Nigel Price & Ade Crimp have done the conversion. Talk to them.
If it's a 350 then you need the sleeve and roller bearing from the original and will have to grind the right-hand journal to fit but the drillings for the oil feed shouldn't give a problem.
If it's a 478 then Nigel Price & Ade Crimp have done the conversion. Talk to them.
Thanks for your replies. I don't know Nigel Price & Ade Crimp but I am on the other side of the water (the right side that is)... It is a 478 engine btw. Anyway, I am expecting some mail from Germany one of these days with a full explanation. Also my "machine-man" offered to make me a new bronze bearing to substitute the plain bearing. So.... some choices to be made shortly I hope. I'll keep you posted.
The early 350 used a 6306 bearing on the drive side (30mm bore 72mm diameter 19mm wide) and a 6206 on the timing side (30mm bore 62mm diameter 16mm wide). The timing side bearing was a sliding fit on a hardened sleeve pressed onto the timing side of the crank. The 250 twin also runs these bearings, but without the hardened sleeve and can wear their cranks relativly fast. The 478 engine also uses the same drive side bearing, but both it and later 350 engines (after 1976?) use the same plain bearing for the timing side main.
The use of a plain bearing on the timing side may explain why the 500 engines were never tuned to the same extent as the 350 Sport. There have been reports of premature failure on tuned engines.
There are roller bearings that are dimensionally the same as the original 6203 timing side ball race. One option would be a FAG NU206ETVP2.C3 (used by NLM I think) another would be N306ETVPC3 (available from www.simplybearings.co.uk). Note that these bearings are the C3 (class three fit) versions. These will go straight onto an early 350 crank and 250 twins, but all other cranks will need the plain bearing hournal grinding down. I can see no point at all in fitting the sleeve, just have the crank ground to the correct size for the bearing to be a direct press fit.
The 501 engines gained an upgrade to the drive side bearing although the timing side bearing was the same. The bearing was a custom made (and now obsolete) SKF 633250C. NLM have some stock at about £120. It appears to be a 4 point angular contact bearing with a larger than standard bore. 4 point contact bearings are designed primarily for axial loads, but due to the larger balls made possible by the split inner race the radial loading is also higher than an equivilent ball race. They also (usually) have a solid bronze cage. There are standard 4 point contact bearings dimensionally identical to earlier 6306 drive side ball races, the SKF QJ306MA for example. I don't know if this bearing has the same performance as the custom SKF (the contact angle is unknown for the original), but it has higher ratings than the original 6306 ball race.
I don't think I'd be happy with a bronze timing side bearing, I'd go for ether a standard replacement, or the roller conversion. I've had this done to the otherwise perfect crank in the tuned 501 motor that's going into my Valentini replica. The cost was about £60 including the bearing.
The use of a plain bearing on the timing side may explain why the 500 engines were never tuned to the same extent as the 350 Sport. There have been reports of premature failure on tuned engines.
There are roller bearings that are dimensionally the same as the original 6203 timing side ball race. One option would be a FAG NU206ETVP2.C3 (used by NLM I think) another would be N306ETVPC3 (available from www.simplybearings.co.uk). Note that these bearings are the C3 (class three fit) versions. These will go straight onto an early 350 crank and 250 twins, but all other cranks will need the plain bearing hournal grinding down. I can see no point at all in fitting the sleeve, just have the crank ground to the correct size for the bearing to be a direct press fit.
The 501 engines gained an upgrade to the drive side bearing although the timing side bearing was the same. The bearing was a custom made (and now obsolete) SKF 633250C. NLM have some stock at about £120. It appears to be a 4 point angular contact bearing with a larger than standard bore. 4 point contact bearings are designed primarily for axial loads, but due to the larger balls made possible by the split inner race the radial loading is also higher than an equivilent ball race. They also (usually) have a solid bronze cage. There are standard 4 point contact bearings dimensionally identical to earlier 6306 drive side ball races, the SKF QJ306MA for example. I don't know if this bearing has the same performance as the custom SKF (the contact angle is unknown for the original), but it has higher ratings than the original 6306 ball race.
I don't think I'd be happy with a bronze timing side bearing, I'd go for ether a standard replacement, or the roller conversion. I've had this done to the otherwise perfect crank in the tuned 501 motor that's going into my Valentini replica. The cost was about £60 including the bearing.
Paul Compton
http://www.morini-mania.co.uk
http://www.youtube.com/user/EVguru
http://www.morini-mania.co.uk
http://www.youtube.com/user/EVguru
Hi Paul,
Thanks for your extended reply. I have received the full story with pics as well in German to convert to a roller bearing.
I am a bit confused however to do this or to go for the original set-up. A friend of mine has this theory that the original bearing tends to get 'dented' if the bike is not used very often (or is stalled for a long time), maybe also because the belt pulls the crank down?
Thanks for your extended reply. I have received the full story with pics as well in German to convert to a roller bearing.
I am a bit confused however to do this or to go for the original set-up. A friend of mine has this theory that the original bearing tends to get 'dented' if the bike is not used very often (or is stalled for a long time), maybe also because the belt pulls the crank down?
Re: the unbearable bearing
Hi
I am converting my 507 motor to roller timing side to get rid of that BSA esque timing bush. I have turned down the journals and then I will grind them as shown in picture.
any and all advice gratefully accepted, see my other post!
Ciao
Crozjota
I am converting my 507 motor to roller timing side to get rid of that BSA esque timing bush. I have turned down the journals and then I will grind them as shown in picture.
any and all advice gratefully accepted, see my other post!
Ciao
Crozjota
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- 507 crank on cylindrical grinder
- CIMG2910 (Small).JPG (52.46 KiB) Viewed 23800 times
Re: the unbearable bearing
Oh look, someone else with an MG12!
Paul Compton
http://www.morini-mania.co.uk
http://www.youtube.com/user/EVguru
http://www.morini-mania.co.uk
http://www.youtube.com/user/EVguru
Re: the unbearable bearing
O, that's nice. I wish I had one of those (and knew how to use it )
Did I mention that (thanks to Hubert) my Camel now has a new plain bearing in the right side which is originally a Toyota-camshaftbearing. It fits in the housing and my machineshopman made everything fit pefectly. It's working very well so far (approx 3000 km's).
This is the partnumber: AEC5058 (for Toyota) from Federal Mogul. There are 5 bearings in there. One you cannot use because it has a small oildiversion in it.
Did I mention that (thanks to Hubert) my Camel now has a new plain bearing in the right side which is originally a Toyota-camshaftbearing. It fits in the housing and my machineshopman made everything fit pefectly. It's working very well so far (approx 3000 km's).
This is the partnumber: AEC5058 (for Toyota) from Federal Mogul. There are 5 bearings in there. One you cannot use because it has a small oildiversion in it.
Re: the unbearable bearing
Hi EVguru, yes its a Myford MG12 a truly excellent little grinder, do you have one?EVguru wrote:Oh look, someone else with an MG12!
Ciao
Crozjota
Re: the unbearable bearing
I have an MG12-HAC with just one previous owner (MOD). It was delivered new to R.P.E. Westcott in 1960 where it was used in the development of rocket engines.
It was pretty much top of the range when new with hydraulic traverse, auto infeed and a Philips Clarifier. Both medium and high speed internal spindles, fixed and swivelling workheads, two point steady, etc.
It was pretty much top of the range when new with hydraulic traverse, auto infeed and a Philips Clarifier. Both medium and high speed internal spindles, fixed and swivelling workheads, two point steady, etc.
Paul Compton
http://www.morini-mania.co.uk
http://www.youtube.com/user/EVguru
http://www.morini-mania.co.uk
http://www.youtube.com/user/EVguru
Re: the unbearable bearing
Sounds a good un, mine is just a bog standard MG12 no hydraulics to go wrong! you wouldn't have a spare internal spindle for one?EVguru wrote:I have an MG12-HAC with just one previous owner (MOD). It was delivered new to R.P.E. Westcott in 1960 where it was used in the development of rocket engines.
It was pretty much top of the range when new with hydraulic traverse, auto infeed and a Philips Clarifier. Both medium and high speed internal spindles, fixed and swivelling workheads, two point steady, etc.
Ciao
Crozjota