Dating by frame and engine numbers

The 3 1/2 forum
Post Reply
stuartgurney
Posts: 16
Joined: 06 Nov 2020 14:41
Location: lyme regis

Dating by frame and engine numbers

Post by stuartgurney »

I have an imported Strada - dated 1985, but someone said it cant be a Strada?

Is there a register of numbers to see if I can get the correct date

Stuart
mbmm350s
Posts: 666
Joined: 22 Jun 2018 10:18
Location: Reading UK
Location: Berkshire UK

Re: Dating by frame and engine numbers

Post by mbmm350s »

Hi Stuart

There are three possible dates, which may be relevant.

1. Declared date of manufacture
2. Date of first registration anywhere in the world if known
3. Date of first registration with the DVLA in the UK

Quite clearly these can be different, so when you say 1985 strada which of these three dates do you mean?
date 2 and 3 are found on the V5c and may be many years if not decades different from date of manufacture.
The 350 Strada ceased production in 1983 and was replaced with the K2 (for which there was no sport/strada differentiation)
but its quite possible that yours wasn't registered until 1985.
The Machine registrar of the Morini Riders Club keeps details for the purpose of issuing dating certificates in compliance with DVLA rules.

Cheers Mark
Al B
Posts: 47
Joined: 03 Feb 2017 20:34
Location: Luton, UK

Re: Dating by frame and engine numbers

Post by Al B »

My 1980 Sport was imported from the US in 1992. The DVLA have the date of manufacture shown as 1990

I have submitted a dating letter from Arthur to get this corrected and have just received a reply from the DVLA stating "dating evidence from any vehicle enthusiast club or specialist vehicle dating service will not be acceptable in these circumstances"

They want either:
an extract from the manufacturers records
the orginal foreign regisration documents, (29 years after being imported) or
a BMIHT record (for an italian bike!)

The other "evidence" they would accept is an extract from Glass's guide - which hasn't been published for years.


So it appears a registered club's "dating certificate" isn't accepted as dating evidence....
mbmm350s
Posts: 666
Joined: 22 Jun 2018 10:18
Location: Reading UK
Location: Berkshire UK

Re: Dating by frame and engine numbers

Post by mbmm350s »

So it appears a registered club's "dating certificate" isn't accepted as dating evidence....
To allay any fears for first registration with DVLA of imported vehicles
owners have registered machines using dating certificates provided by the Morini Riders Club.
The issue seems to be as AlB says to change a date of a vehicle already registered with the DVLA requires
different supporting documentation.

Strangely we have just received a V5c with taxation class changed to Historic vehicle AND a tax paid refund,
I never even asked!

What a bizarre organisation the DVLA is...

Thanks
Mark
MickeyMoto
Posts: 2415
Joined: 22 Nov 2008 17:41
Location: Even further oop North

Re: Dating by frame and engine numbers

Post by MickeyMoto »

I tried dating by frame and engines numbers, too. Wasn't very successful, had more success with Tinder...
Al B
Posts: 47
Joined: 03 Feb 2017 20:34
Location: Luton, UK

Re: Dating by frame and engine numbers

Post by Al B »

Does anyone have access to a copy of Glass's Check Book for motorcycles?

As Mark pointed out DVLA will accept a dating letter from a club as evidence for claiming historic tax status of a vehicle (which they already know to be historic from the registration information they hold). However they don't accept one as evidence for proof of age, relying insteead on a publication that has been out of print for years!


Alan
norbert
Posts: 750
Joined: 15 May 2007 15:15
Location: Lübeck/Germany

Re: Dating by frame and engine numbers

Post by norbert »

And if you can show them copies of the papers of a bike with lower and higher frame number (not too far away)?
Al B
Posts: 47
Joined: 03 Feb 2017 20:34
Location: Luton, UK

Re: Dating by frame and engine numbers

Post by Al B »

If you fancy a laugh... here is the extract from the publication that DVLA trust to provide reliable dating evidence !

Image
EVguru
Posts: 1528
Joined: 01 Aug 2006 11:13
Location: Luton
Contact:

Re: Dating by frame and engine numbers

Post by EVguru »

Al B wrote: 06 Jun 2021 20:25 My 1980 Sport was imported from the US in 1992. The DVLA have the date of manufacture shown as 1990

I have submitted a dating letter from Arthur to get this corrected and have just received a reply from the DVLA stating "dating evidence from any vehicle enthusiast club or specialist vehicle dating service will not be acceptable in these circumstances"
To bypass the DVLA's corporate immune sysrem, you've got to be sneaky.

"Lose" both the existing V5C and number plate.

Apply to C&E for a Nova.

Get an MOT on the frame number.

Use the dating certificate to re-register from scratch.
Paul Compton
http://www.morini-mania.co.uk
http://www.youtube.com/user/EVguru
MickeyMoto
Posts: 2415
Joined: 22 Nov 2008 17:41
Location: Even further oop North

Re: Dating by frame and engine numbers

Post by MickeyMoto »

That may throw up other problems!

Receipt, please. VAT at 5% to pay as from USA, why ask now, C&E already have a record of the import etc etc?

How would you lose a V5, scrap the vehicle? The frame number would possibly come up as a duplicate on the DVLA records.

Not up to me, but I'd be apprehensive dealing with the Customs people in this way.

Mike.
EVguru
Posts: 1528
Joined: 01 Aug 2006 11:13
Location: Luton
Contact:

Re: Dating by frame and engine numbers

Post by EVguru »

If you bought a project Morini from someone and they didn't have the V5C and couldn't remember the registration, you'd have to apply to the DVLA for a replacement. Without the reg number, they won't issue a V5C anf you'd have to register from scratch.

NOVA (notification of vehicle arrival) was intended to apply to vehicles imported from outside the EU and new or nearly new vehicles imported from within the EU. Nearly new was defined as less than 6 months old, or less than 6000 miles.

The DVLA decided that NOVA was required for ANY vehicle not on their system, so a UK manufactured motorcycle that had never left the UK would require a NOVA declaration before registration. At one time this caused an 18 month backlog at C&E. If you've bought an unregistered vehicle in the UK, you may not have the required details to complete the NOVA application online and had to phone C&E to request a paper copy of form NOVA 1. You had to fill in whatever details you had and then write a covering letter explaining why you couldn't provide further information. In the case of a French motorcycle I'd bought in the UK, before NOVA was introduced, C&E advised my to use a valid French address that had nothing to do with the bike and I had the NOVA within an hour.

There are hundreds, perhaps many thousands of Italian motorcycles registered with duplicate frame numbers. The "trained" DVLA vehicle inpectors frequently don't know the difference between a frame number and the type approval number for the model.

At worst, the DVLA will find that the bike is registered and charge you £25 for a duplicate V5C.
Paul Compton
http://www.morini-mania.co.uk
http://www.youtube.com/user/EVguru
Al B
Posts: 47
Joined: 03 Feb 2017 20:34
Location: Luton, UK

Re: Dating by frame and engine numbers

Post by Al B »

Having sent DVLA the Glass's info with no details in it they have decided that they would be able to accept a dating certificate as proof of age....just like the one I had originally sent them that they said wasn't acceptable as proof of age... !!

However they couldn't provide a new 'age related' 1980 registration to replace the existing 1980 registration that they previously issued and is already on the bike they were trying to maintain was made in 1990

I think even the most satirical comedy writer woud struggle to come up with something as kafka-esque as this!


"The frame number would possibly come up as a duplicate on the DVLA records." I asked them for registration details of a frame number for one of my other bikes and was told that DVLA can't trace a registration from a frame number, only from a VRM. I really think they make it up as they go along

Alan
MickeyMoto
Posts: 2415
Joined: 22 Nov 2008 17:41
Location: Even further oop North

Re: Dating by frame and engine numbers

Post by MickeyMoto »

I bought a Morini which had in the past an hpi check. There was a clarification letter saying that although there was a Category write off it wasn't for the bike but a vehicle with the same chassis number.

It is obvious that a chassis number is not unique across manufacturers, but it must be unique to a specific model of a manufacturer. Why DVLA can't do a search against chassis number and manufacturer god knows. However, this assumes the Manufacturer name is always entered correctly and the chassis number, too. Morini, Moto Morini, A3/05432 or 05432 or A3/05432 DGM098765 etc...

This was probably ok when bikes were new but now those of us importing secondhand bikes and cars are probably all responsible for the incorrect records...
Post Reply