125H problems

Lambertini era singles (125 and 250 - half v-twins)
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Ming
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Location: Central France

Re: 125H problems

Post by Ming »

Il get me coat, couldn't see a date. :oops:
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themoudie
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Re: 125H problems

Post by themoudie »

Morning Ming,

No need for any :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :lol: With these wee perishers any info is better than the dearth of apparent knowledge in MRC and other Moto Morini club circles.

Viewed as "Learner" bikes in the UK, "junk" in the Benelux countries and "macchine utilitarie" in Italy; along with 1970's Italian coloured spaghetti to conduct electricity and a plethora of cheap and cheerful electrical components, assembled by disgruntled employees, they have their weaknesses! :evil: But, I would like to think these are resolveable! :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Quite how the indicators, with 15w 6v bulbs fitted, are supposed to function when the 25w 6v headlamp is also in use, along with the 21w 6v rear brake light, when the generator output is only 30w 6v? Only an optimistic Italian electrical engineer named "Merlino il mago" would know! :wink:

Thank you for your suggestions.

Good health, Bill
125H
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Re: 125H problems

Post by 125H »

I contacted Kennedy but he says they no longer do it for the 125H I suspect they were selling the VAPE unit which is no longer made.
125H
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Re: 125H problems

Post by 125H »

I am surprised that no one makes or can offer an ignition unit for the 125H having a searched around there are hundreds of them for all manner of lightweight scooters and bikes, some made in China but don't know about the quality.
I suppose due to the scarcity of the 125H no one can make the units at a profitable price unlike Lambretta or Vespa I don't really believe that the 125H is such a piece of junk, although mine is certainly testing my sense of humour, the frame is excellent and the engine appears to be of good quality but cheap design and they do work and win races. Although I do not like rubber belts, always thought they were for vacuum cleaners and washing machines, but it seems the motor industry has now gone that way completely, I suppose its much cheaper than timing gear cutting. I had my stator plate rewound and a new pickup fitted but to no avail so perhaps its not the problem, I have tried adjusting the valve timing but it will not align exactly but it can be plus or minus 3 degrees and am sure its within those limits then of course with a 40 + year old engine wear may be coming into play. The valve guides seemed OK but it may be sucking air into the system from worn guides, there are too may possibles with an old motor.

I don't know how many 125H machines are in the UK but possibly we could make up an order and it may then be possible to have someone make or adapt their units, looking at the ignition system its simple and not rocket science, I am sure some electrical firm or engineer could make them. Something with degree adjustment and a laser instead of the pickup!

I was told a while ago that there is someone in the Netherlands who will make them and of course the now defunct NLM used to offer a unit for the V twins so it has been done somewhere before.
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themoudie
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Re: 125H problems

Post by themoudie »

Aye Leonard,

I have updated my thread, with my latest news re. ignition components. Link: 125H_with_no_spark_thread

I will be posting a further update after fitting the serviced items.

There are alternatives to the current ignition set-up, but these involve fitting an alternative trigger coil/mechanism either to the outside of the rotor or to the left-hand side of the camshaft, as in all the other Moto Morinis of this design. The possible expense or complexity of carrying out these modifications could be prohibitive, VAPE sytems were/are costing over €350 + taxes + P&P. As the Ducati system fitted is regarded as being of "good quality" within the trade, when compared with some Far Eastern offerings, making the Ducati system operational appears to be the preferential option at present.

Good health, Bill
125H
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Re: 125H problems

Post by 125H »

Hello Bill,

yes the expense is always a problem, my restoration went well over budget and it still does not work the engine modifications you mention would not be worth it at all, unless you were going for some sort of 125cc land speed record!
I am getting to the stage where I think - should have bought a BSA Bantam, at least I would know were to look for the problems and aftermarket parts are plentiful. I only wanted a light weight sports bike and though my 125H looks the part its not fit to take on the roads due to the up and down running problems, if I knew anyone I would ship it off to a professional to have a look at but they would probably be as buggered as I am!
Anyway please let me know how you get on with yours.
Regards
Leonard.
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themoudie
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Re: 125H problems

Post by themoudie »

Morning Leonard,

Let me see how I get on with my refurbished components and I will pass on the details to all 125H owners, via my thread and a copy to this one.

Good health, Bill
125H
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Re: 125H problems

Post by 125H »

I am sure someone somewhere could produce a decent ignition system for the 125H, I researched this and there are hundreds out there, mainly for motor scooters (some are made in China) the now defunct NLM had a kit for the V twins and Rex Caunt Racing in Leicester has one for the BSA Bantam.
I am still working on carburation trying to find my issues, but carbs are not that complicated if they are working, its just a matter of fuel and air flow. So I expect to come back to ignition at some point.
I may try and find the source of these alternative kits for the twins and its probably an electrical/engineering job to have them made. I understand a specialist in the Netherlands makes them and will try and find his name, but I doubt its going to be cheap unless a bulk order can be offered, that's no doubt why VAPE dropped it from their line. Wouldn't it be nice a really good ignition with vernier adjustment that could be adjusted while the engine was running perhaps even a laser trigger instead of the pick up, would it be worth it for a 125 single, very doubtful.
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themoudie
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Re: 125H problems

Post by themoudie »

Good afternoon Gentlemen,

This 125H single problem is now spread across 3 threads! :roll: Confusing for any future reference by a similarly suffering soul! :? :? :?

So, I shall post this information across all 3 threads and then stick with the "125 with no spark" thread only. But, read the others for any further positive or negative developments.

I despatched my entire generator/ignition system, including both my original Ducati Elecctronica # 323921 and Ducati Energia #32398112 transducers (CDI/HT unit) to Rex's Speedshop, but due to staff problems and after 10 weeks, I requested that he return the whole lot to me. This he did, in short order and with no problems.

I then despatched the entire system to another experienced auto electrician, with the necessary oscilliscope facilities and experience of these scooter derived systems. After testing the individual components, he dynamically tested the system, with both the black Ducati Elecctronica #323921 and blue Ducati Energia #32398112 transducers in place. The component that appeared to be malfunctioning was my original trigger coil that was not showing a negative wave on the oscilliscope. The replacement (Lambretta type 12) that I had fitted did show the positive and negative waves but did not align with the cutaways in the flywheel that cause it to create the trigger signal. So another Italian trigger coil of better quality and fit was fitted to my stator and the working air gap checked. He too was of the opinion that there is nothing wrong with the quality of the Ducati components and system robustness, as a whole.

Today, I re-checked my valve timing, then fitted the stator etc. Connected all the stator wires to the black # 323921 CDI/HT unit and the RECT/REG and fired the engine up. A definite improvement to the ability to fire up and a good strong increase in the revs from a 1,300rpm tickover to half throttle (3,500-4,000rpm), when the stuttering re-appeared and any further opening of the throttle caused the engine to cut out abruptly. Using the timing light, a marginal movement of ~5°to the left of the 'ANT' mark on the rotor (advancing) preceeded the engine cutting out.

I then repeated the procedure, with the REG/RECT and ignition switch wires disconnected, with the same results.

The black # 323921 unit was then replaced, with the #32398112 unit, again starting with all of the connections made then disconnected and the exact same symptoms were recorded! :evil: This would tend to discount the notion that the blue #32398112 unit is not a workable alternative to the black # 323921 unit. Or, the cause of this particular set of symptoms.
Interference to the trigger pulse is not uncommon if the earths are poor. Or the frame is heavily painted as the transducers rely on earth via the headstock.
To avoid this, I have renewed the earth lead from the REG/RECT mounting bracket to the upper rear crankcxase bolt of the engine and also used an additional white wire between both CDI/HT units and the REG/RECT mounting bracket bolts, to ensure a good earth between all of the components.

I am not convinced that fitting a
New and exact substitutes for the original black transducer with tacho output can be obtained from Alex Luzzi
will cure the problem.

Thank you all for your time and thoughts.

Good health, Bill
125H
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Re: 125H problems

Post by 125H »

Well Bill,

no cure for the problem then, regardless of all the experts. I don't know where to go from here with mine, it starts and ticks-over as I said before but is reluctant to rev and shows about 30 degrees retarded.
It seems no one can offer a solution to this problem, although there are 125H's out there that are running OK so something must be buggered with ours.
I have emailed many ignition manufactures over the last few days and non have an alternative or cannot or will not offer any advise.
The only suggestion I had from Fordone was to fit a complete new Vespa Piaggo 125 ignition system but which one I don't know. I wondered if there is some confusion between the early 125H and the later serious which is wired differently and I suspect 12 volt would a 12 volt transducer work off a 6 volt generator, or would it end in this result, although you say you have tried the original 323921 with the same result.
Personally I am about to throw in the towel with Morini's there are far too many problems highlighted in these posts to make a 125H nothing but a white elephant and nothing now convinces me to buy an alternative model.
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themoudie
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Re: 125H problems

Post by themoudie »

Good evening Leonard,

I have to say that I was miffed, when The Minx refused to play ball, with either of the CDI/HT units, even though they had been tested to be giving good sparks up to a theoretical 20,000rpm! :shock: The man who checked everything through for me was apologetic that his work had not resolved the problem. He is not the first to have admitted being baffled!

The problem with,
The only suggestion I had from Fordone was to fit a complete new Vespa Piaggo 125 ignition system but which one I don't know.
(Fordone? Never heard of them!) is that the Vespa stator backplate is unlikely to have the clearance required to accomodate the timing belt and as you suggest, "How much more cash do you throw at the problem?".

I am going to go back through the valve timing, the whole ignition system and maybe even try a different carb, to quieten my brain! :twisted: "Made by man, can be repaired by man" still rings in my ears. The sh*t or bust manouvre if that finds no solution, is an vAC Chinese CDI unit, with 6 adjustable advance curves taking power from the low tension coil and signal from the trigger coil opereating a separate vAC HT coil. £15 to £20 won't break the bank and might provide an answer? :wink: As I said before, I'll post updates on the "125H with no spark" thread.

Good health, Bill
125H
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Re: 125H problems

Post by 125H »

Hi Bill,

yes its a problem, I looked at widening the slots in the back plate to give more advance but there would be little advantage as the ears will then touch the timing belt, Fodone are a major supplier of electronics in Italy but are mainly trade so we do not hear much about them, I will ask Andrea Fodone if they have any transducers that may cure this issue, or any that can be reprogrammed. All we hear about is fitting 323921 or its variant but I suspect this is from the V twin aspect and not a crank driven system as per the 125H we need something with more advance a retarded engine will not run for long and will overheat. I have been in touch with many 'experts' and 'gurus' in the UK but after all the advertising as to what they can do, they disappear back into their holes and go very quite, at he mention of Morini.
I don't think this is a carburation problem, we tried two different carburettors on mine both set up by a genuine expert but with the same result its definitely a timing issue I'm sure, its a problem with advance and retard. If I cannot resolve it this year it will be back in the garage pending a decision next spring, please let me know if you have any success with your plan and I will keep you informed of any findings.

Regards
Leonard.
MickeyMoto
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Re: 125H problems

Post by MickeyMoto »

125H wrote: 02 Sep 2022 08:17
I have been in touch with many 'experts' and 'gurus' in the UK but after all the advertising as to what they can do, they disappear back into their holes and go very quite, at he mention of Morini...

Regards
Leonard.
People on this forum give their knowledge freely. Were you expecting the solution to be given to you on a plate? There cannot be a guarantee of suggestions working, especially from a written description. You have a rare bike. It is 40 plus years old. Parts are no longer available. The V twins are not so rare and have a different setup. If two people have a problem for bikes that have worked in the past then there must be a common fault. Go back to first principles, put everything back to standard if possible, then start again. Making too many changes and not reverting before making others will lead you up the garden path. The only way somebody will resolve this, in my opinion, is to have the complete bike to look at.
125H
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Re: 125H problems

Post by 125H »

I think you are misunderstanding me - I make no mention of people on this forum, those I refer to have been commercial operations and outside of any Morini circles. I have received much help and information from those on this site such as Paul Compton and others and the Dutch Morini site.
I would agree with you that going back to basics is a good idea if the parts are available which in most cases they are not and may have been swapped out over the years and cannot now be replaced. I must add though that I find your opening comments slightly belligerent which is unhelpful.
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themoudie
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Re: 125H problems

Post by themoudie »

Morning Micky Moto and Leonard,
People on this forum give their knowledge freely. Were you expecting the solution to be given to you on a plate?
I shall let Leonard speak for himself. But, from my perspective,I do not see Leonard's vexation being directed toward MRC forum contributors, but to bonafide businesses advertising a service that they are not familiar with.

Getting snotty is not going to solve either Leonard's or my problem and we have both been trying many avenues, I for 15 years plus; yet we are unable to find the "Geeny in the bottle!" in our areas where we live. I appreciate that being able to wiggle wires and be "hands on" with the problem machine is preferable, but carting a whole bike about the countryside is not only expensive, but if the commercial operators do not cure the problem, loose parts, or go bust you may have lost your machine as well. Seen that happen too often, with so called engine rebuilders/engineers! Having spent 22 months trying get a 450 Ducati to run, without backfiring the carburettor off the inlet stub in a sheet of flame at random intervals, I have been here before, with Italian electrical components and their mechanical associates. :wink:
Go back to first principles, put everything back to standard if possible, then start again.
If you would care to read the thread "125 no spark" you will see that that is what I have done. The gentleman who put my complete system through his diagnostics found that my original trigger coil was not sending the negative wave signal to the CDI and because he thought that the Indian "pattern" trigger coil that I had replaced the original with was not correctly positioned, he replaced it with an unobtainium original Italian item and on testing this, it gave a good signal. In good faith, he genuinely believed that his work was sound and that I should now have a running engine.
I don't think this is a carburation problem, we tried two different carburettors on mine both set up by a genuine expert but with the same result its definitely a timing issue I'm sure, its a problem with advance and retard.
I agree Leonard. I also, after "sleeping on it", am very suspicious of the trigger coil or the insulation somewhere on the stator. I haven't taken measurements from the latest rebuild, but previously the voltage from the low tension coil increased to 180-185vAC, 3,000-3,500rpm, at which point the stuttering started. Opening the throttle to the 3,500 to 4,000rpm mark, caused the voltage to rise to 200vAC, at which point it appeared that the insulation gave way, causing a direct short, loss of spark and engine cut out.

I have now found a rolling road/dynomometer quite close to me and intend to make an investigative call later. I shall post the outcome of the conversation. Maybe a blether, with a local motorcycle racer in your neck of the woods might produce a local rolling road/dynomometer who know their trade?

Good health to all, Bill
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