It was nice whilst it lasted

Anything to do with motorcyles
Post Reply
MickeyMoto
Posts: 2111
Joined: 22 Nov 2008 17:41
Location: Even further oop North

It was nice whilst it lasted

Post by MickeyMoto »

MickeyMoto
Posts: 2111
Joined: 22 Nov 2008 17:41
Location: Even further oop North

Re: It was nice whilst it lasted

Post by MickeyMoto »

Maybe these will persuade you we are doomed. I am really worried for our children. I have only just discovered this guy and I like his style.

Come on MAG/BMF etc. Maybe the https://www.fbhvc.co.uk/ would be a good place for MRC money?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKnhgBa_fNQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOYTNwBQPSQ
morini_tom
Posts: 785
Joined: 05 May 2006 13:47
Location: Northampton

Re: It was nice whilst it lasted

Post by morini_tom »

Personally I’m not worrying too much about it, I think there’s a lot of misunderstanding of the intention and how the new legislation could be applied. I don’t see it affecting our hobby, and in fact it may be a lifeline to the internal combustion engine as opposed to an outright ban.

It may well affect new bikes and how they are designed and used in the future but it's just another step in something that's been happening for decades already, it’s just a bit more clever and complex now as we have the technology and the manufacturers really are striving to make combustion engines as environmentally friendly as possible. Think back 30 years to how the air smelt in the mornings, how most vehicles left trails of smoke, and fuel consumption was pretty poor. The progress to today has been costly and difficult to achieve but look how we all benefit from it. It wouldn't have happened without legislation. The problem is, as the ability to control an engine improves, improving as a result performance, emissions and fuel economy, the need to keep that engine control in check increases, as small deviations in control or changes to hardware can undo all that hard work.

The concept of not modifying vehicles already exists in that homologation very explicitly defines vehicle specification, performance and emissions criteria, so you could argue that it’s never been allowed anyway.

There’s a raft of new legislation being discussed and it's not just Europe so brexit is rather irrelevant. At the SAE Symposium this year there was a lot of discussion about implementation of new On board Diagnotic checks for motorcycles. Nothing much that isn't already required in the car world but nonetheless it will be a challenge for motorcycle manufacturers to develop, package and manufacture given the price sensitivity of motorcycles. Motorcycles lag behind cars by quite some number of years in terms of the complexity of sensor package, engine control and diagnostic checks which are performed and the ability of the vehicle to flag faults which would result in an increase in emissions. The anti tampering legislation in respect of for example catalyst removal is really only ensuring that vehicles remain emissions compliant throughout their useful life. That may seem rather killjoy but the alternative could feasibly be an outright ban on combustion engines, and I’d much rather have the option of buying a new combustion engined motorcycle in 10 years than them being outlawed because consumers rejected what could be considered to be a lifeline for the combustion engine.

I feel similarly about ethanol fuels. Ethanol in high percentages is successfully used in many regions (Brazil, Scandinavia etc), and could have been a viable low carbon fuel which as a part of the fleet makeup might have extended the life of combustion engines whilst reducing CO2 emissions. Granted it causes some compatibility issues but none that are insurmountable (a bit like taking lead out of petrol). Had we embraced E85 then again, combustion engines may have had a lifeline.

I’ve never been a fan of the ‘aftermarket crowd’ who think they can do things better than factories anyway, so stricter regulation on for example remapping I have no problem with. Similarly for safety critical components, how can anybody be sure they have developed and tested a product as rigorously as an OEM? And if they genuinely have, they’ll have the data to show and I would expect can apply for some sort of aftermarket certification (a bit like the TUV in Germany). Saying that a vehicle passes an MOT with modifications so they must be ok is completely missing the point (and massively overestimating what an MOT check actually tells you). At the SAE Symposium, CARB (California Air Resources Board who set California's emissions standards) more or less said that changing end user behaviour (to not tamper) would be the biggest challenge, so they are considering the reaction to these sorts of changes and I would say they are unlikely to expect compliance overnight and across the board.

Where does it leave our classic bikes? I doubt it will change anything as the implementation is too complex to be retrospectively applied, and isn't really applicable to our older machines which were significantly simpler in the first place. Any legislation I expect will be primarily concerned with basically detecting defeat device hardware or technology- anything that changes the way the manufacturer intended the engine to operate and it’s emissions. We all know what happened with the dieselgate scandal (and then many people bemoaned the fact that VW had somehow cheated them. I wonder how many of those people are now protesting against the anti tamper legislation, which is kind of there to stop a similar thing happening).

We are pretty much at peak combustion engine now and anything that allows them to continue a few more years is ok in my book. If anyone can cast an eye on my Morini and tell me that anything on it is non standard and results in any sort of emissions increase then I will gladly look over the data they can produce to back that up!

For me, the longer OEMs can justify and are interested in producing new combustion engined vehicles, the longer petrol will be commonly available, and that's actually the thing which is going to stop us using our classics... So rather than helping to legislate combustion engines out, we should be accepting the progressive steps that will keep new ones in production for as long as possible, and trust in the OEM's engineers ability to make most of these changes more or less transparent to the vast majority of users.
MickeyMoto
Posts: 2111
Joined: 22 Nov 2008 17:41
Location: Even further oop North

Re: It was nice whilst it lasted

Post by MickeyMoto »

Tom,

We should be taking both of the measures I have highlighted together. The Government does not want us to have personal transport, according to the first video I posted. It will be irrelevant if we can modify or not modify our bikes.

The main reason for posting was to draw attention to what is being proposed, as if there is no push back then what is proposed will be pushed through. I disagree 100% with your assertion regarding OEM. All that will happen is the OEM will be able to charge what they want. Where does that leave all the people who currently produce parts? Out of business? This is the catch. Nobody will be able to produce parts unless they are OEM. I believe Morini stopped in about 1994, BSA in the early 70s etc etc. The legislation would need to ensure that this can continue, but I do not believe Greta wants that. Of course, if we can't buy bikes and cars then what happens to the OEM manufacturers who will see their market dwindle? As it states in the video, even electric cars will not be available for us plebs.

I am hoping that the riders' rights groups are pushing back and ensuring that we can still obtain parts for our old clunkers. I also ride a Euro 4 bike, when will that fall foul of the legislation? At present Euro 3 is the standard for allowing bikes in low pollution zones. Soon it will be Euro 4, then Euro 5, then sorry, you cannot ride your motorcycle as it is dirty, get the bus you oik.
User avatar
72degrees
Posts: 1423
Joined: 31 Aug 2007 21:24
Location: West Midlands

Re: It was nice whilst it lasted

Post by 72degrees »

I endorse Mr Moto's plea for FBHVC affiliation - particularly as the VMCC have dropped out.

The legislation smells too much of a possible move to a German TuV style of testing.
User avatar
Ming
Posts: 728
Joined: 01 Aug 2014 16:32
Location: France
Location: Central France

Re: It was nice whilst it lasted

Post by Ming »

Why the past tense? I recall all sorts of dire predictions for bikes and bikers over the last 50 years. I'm still riding, including à ’56 Bantam, and see no reason to stop, even if it means swapping to battery powered bikes. We’re too small a minority without a big enough ’media’ presence to make any headlines. Take off the blinkers, times change, as Mr Dylan said ”get out of the new one if you can't lend a hand...”
MickeyMoto
Posts: 2111
Joined: 22 Nov 2008 17:41
Location: Even further oop North

Re: It was nice whilst it lasted

Post by MickeyMoto »

Monsieur Ming,

I think the ramblings of the gentleman have hidden a basic message. I was rather swayed by the bike riding around Yorkshire and the guy's East Yorkshire twang. A lot of what he says can be ignored. So my simple take on this is as follows.

1. There was a proposal to stop any modification to bikes and cars. This was clarified, after some kickback from various groups to only ban the replacement of items that affected the emissions. However, what this means is not clear. Until legislation is published I am not sure what will be allowed.

2. As OEM only would be allowed, if your exhaust blew then only an expensive OEM article could be purchased. This could be applied retrospectively. Construction and Use covers what was required at the date of registration. (I think, and not build date). However, swapping exhausts is not illegal. The new legislation could insist ANY bike has to have OEM. It would outlaw the manufacturing and selling of anything from the date of the legislation forward. OEM exhaust for a 1981 Morini? Nope.

3. Now, take the other item. This is designed to stop anybody having a private vehicle. If allowed, you would not be allowed on the road. This is frightening. Bicycle, public transport or car share. Fancy a ride out? Not easy. Run out of paint whilst decorating? The trip to Bricolage is not instantaneous. Book a car, ride your bike or take the bus.

This is my reading of the proposed legislation, and is what I am trying to get across. We need groups to read the proposed legislation to ensure our rights are not eroded, or worse, removed. If we do nothing there will be mission creep and our freedom to enjoy our bikes will be over (closely followed by Civil War, of course!).

Joyeux Noel,

Michel Moto.
Post Reply